Content Author Object Flagger Flag Created Reason Resolved by Resolution
American sweetgum (Liquidambar styraciflua) cmcheatle Tue, 29 Jan 2019 17:55:12 +0000

Incorrect establishment means

Not Resolved

Comments

Listed as introduced on many North American checklists, which is not the case.

A previous resolved flag suggested this was fixed, but clearly not the case. Maybe the resolver just set it for 1 spot, or did not cascade down ?
https://www.inaturalist.org/flags/91978

Posted by cmcheatle over 3 years ago (Flag)

The resolver fixed Staten Island to show native, but not Richmond County, NY. As for the numerous other listings, states like Texas are split between the native range (the far eastern part of the state) and many counties where the species was introduced. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Liquidambar_styraciflua_range_map_4.png

Posted by sanguinaria33 over 3 years ago (Flag)

The issue is it is basically a crapshoot as to what you see in any different source you look at (which is a general issue, not just this species).

For example the USDA page referenced in the about section even lists California as native range.

Posted by cmcheatle over 3 years ago (Flag)

And after I fixed Richmond County, New York City pops up as introduced....

Posted by sanguinaria33 over 3 years ago (Flag)

is this change ongoing? i was going to flag this taxon as having incorrect establishment means in a lot of east TX counties, based on what i seen in BONAP (http://bonap.net/NAPA/TaxonMaps/Genus/County/Liquidambar) and USDA (https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=LIST2).

Posted by pisum over 3 years ago (Flag)

It is going to likely have to be done by folks with local knowledge as the sources online are all over the place as to status. All users can change the status, if you want to update the areas you have the local knowledge for, please go ahead.

Posted by cmcheatle over 3 years ago (Flag)

ok. i updated Galveston, Harris, Montgomery, Chambers, Liberty, San Jacinto, Jefferson, Hardin, Polk, Orange, Jasper, and Tyler counties as native, plus Big Thicket National Preserve. I can only see 100 of 241 establishment means records. so i can't tell if there's other stuff that needs to be changed. for coastal counties, i went ahead and included them as native even though it's unlikely the parts closest to the coast would have sweetgums.

Posted by pisum over 3 years ago (Flag)

hmmm... it still looks like there may be other places in E TX that I might have to change. for example, some local observations tell me that sweetgums are introduced in Memorial Park and Greater Houston Area, but i don't know how to get to those establishment means records. (i can still only see the first 100 records.)

Posted by pisum over 3 years ago (Flag)

I know of no way to see more than 100. The only option is if you know the geography is to go to the taxa page, go to the map, zoom in far enough so the counties show, and turn off all the layers except checklist places, then you can see which counties have it on their checklist and go from there. That does not help with parks etc though.

Posted by cmcheatle over 3 years ago (Flag)

@cmcheatle -- thanks. i started changing individual places, but it looks like there might be a lot of overlapping places to change. so i stopped before i got too deep into a pool of unknown depth. looks like there's discussion at iNatForum about fixing the top 100 limitation (https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/improve-curation-tools-for-establishment-means/720). so i'm going to see if something shakes out from that before attempting to make further changes.

Posted by pisum over 3 years ago (Flag)

State of Texas was still set to Introduced. I changed it to Native (without including children), since it is considered native to parts of the state. See if this helps the smaller child areas display their status correctly. If not, we may have to change the state to "Unknown" to make that work.

Posted by jdmore over 3 years ago (Flag)

@jdmore -- thanks, but i pulled up three observations in the area, and they all still show as introduced as a result of different locations. Memorial Park: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/12909247, UH: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/11174674, Mason Park: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/4296282. i wish there was a way to get rid of all the unnecessary non-county child place records. it's a mess at this point.

Posted by pisum over 3 years ago (Flag)

Yeah, so expanding the location details for your Memorial Park example, I see that this observation is in 3 different places all named some variation of Memorial Park (along with a couple dozen more community places). And each of the Memorial Park places has a different parent place designated (you have to pull up the place record and put it in edit mode to see). So this may be more a case of conflict among multiple places, than of issues with the Establishment Means resolution.

A curator could try just setting all of the county(ies?) including Houston to Native, and include its child places. But that would only work if the child places had their parents set correctly. And in some specific parks or other small places, it may well also be that only introduced individuals are present there.

So yes, tough mess to sort out! And a lot depends on the community curating those local places well.

Posted by jdmore over 3 years ago (Flag)

It is just a vicious circle. There is a cascade to a child places tool when changing the status, but it is restricted to curators use only as it can do a lot of damage and cause a lot of records to be updated.

I tried it for Harris county but the records still show as introduced because now it is picking up tpwd zone 7. That seems wrong though as I thought it was supposed to go off the geographically smallest area it had a listing for and surely the county is smaller than a zone. Although I'm certainly not a Texan so that may be a false assumption.

The show more than 100 and other curating changes aren't going anywhere. I raised them separately too, but the issue is that changes to help curators are never going to be popular enough on the forum, they just won't get the votes to be high on the list.

I hope you don't perceive it as a cop out asking you to make the changes, I'm not sure if Jim there in Nevada, and I know me here in Canada just don't have the detailed local knowledge of native vs introduced in different parts of Texas.

Posted by cmcheatle over 3 years ago (Flag)

thanks for everyone's help. i don't fault you guys at all for wanting to tread lightly when making changes in Texas. i bet iNat can't decide whether the Texas Parks & Wildlife zone is smaller or Harris County is because the TWPD zone excludes all of the Houston Ship Channel. (TWPD District 7 doesn't fully encompass Harris County.) so maybe it prioritizes the special place over the standard place. so we're back at the original problem. it's just hard to make changes here because it's hard to see all the establishment means records.

Posted by pisum over 3 years ago (Flag)

The TWPD zones are entered as direct children of the state of Texas, so those checklists and introduction states were not impacted by the cascade of the Harris county status that I did. The various instances of Memorial Park now show as native, but it is not relevant on the observation record as I noted it is picking up the TWOD zone.

It is obviously not based on the smallest geographic entity it can find as I thought as there is no question the park is smaller than either the county or the wildlife zone, so obviously some other factor is leading it to go with the status from the TWPD checklist.

Getting rid of places smaller than county is something I would likely not support. Texas is big right, and divided into what some 250 counties, well spare a thought for those of us up here in Ontario. It is 60% larger than Texas and has less than 50 counties (or our equivalent of counties at least), getting some level of subdivision smaller really helps us.

Getting some way to see all the checklists a species is on is the most viable approach, but it seems the dev team just is not into doing it.

Posted by cmcheatle over 3 years ago (Flag)

yeah. i didn't mean i want to get rid of the ability to set establishment means for any small place. it's just that it seems like in this particular taxon case, all the non-county zones seem to have been auto-created by some mass process and should not have been. there really should have been no reason to have special sweetgum establishment means for any of these parks, colleges, wildlife management districts, flood zones, etc. actually, a lot of these special places probably should have been created without the "checklists" option enabled, i think. but i bet a lot of people creating places don't understand what that "checklists" option does. (i certainly didn't until going through this exercise.)

Posted by pisum over 3 years ago (Flag)

@cmcheatle Surely the dev team might be susceptible to the notion that changes to help curators can have cascading effects that also help a much larger number of users? Surely this is another case in point right here??

Posted by jdmore over 3 years ago (Flag)

ok. i used https://jumear.github.io/stirfry/iNat_taxon_est_means.html?taxon_id=49658 to fix everything around my local area (Houston, TX).

Posted by pisum almost 2 years ago (Flag)

"Introduced in Hurricane Harvey Flood Zone, US, TX: arrived in the region via anthropogenic means"
Tyler County was effected by Harvey flooding but Sweetgum is native to here. But I guess it's not native to other areas of the flood zone so I changed establishment from "introduced" to "unknown".

Edit: after refresh it said introduced to East Texas. I was about to change that to "native" until I remembered the iNaturalist place is the entire eastern half of the state. Set to "unknown" again. No more introduced warning after refreshing again.

Posted by lappelbaum 7 months ago (Flag)

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