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mikegrutherford Brown Vinesnake (Oxybelis aeneus)

a new paper has split the species into several new species, see "Not withering on the evolutionary vine: systematic revision of the Brown Vine Snake (Reptilia: Squamata: Oxybelis) from its northern distribution" 2020 by Jadin et al

Oct. 15, 2020 19:43:42 +0000 loarie

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Got a copy of the paper. Will start working on the new maps for the split. The Reptile Database recognizes the first Jadin et al paper (2019) but not the new paper with the naming of the new species (2020). We need to contact them to see if they are going to accept this new taxonomy.
https://doi.org/10.1007/s13127-020-00461-0
We can start working on maps and new species though in anticipation of that acceptance.

Posted by sandboa over 3 years ago

would be nice to know what RD and SSAR plan to do here

Posted by loarie over 3 years ago

The new RD release now includes this split.

I'm not crazy about this paper because the only non-monophyletic bit they found (Oxybelis wilsoni nested within Oxybelis fulgidus) they didn't address. They're just splitting a monophyletic Oxybelis aeneus into smaller non-overlapping bits and they didn't look at the portion of Oxybelis aeneus from most of South America (Amazon region)

That said I also don't like deviating from RD.

Were we to follow RD and split this, here's my attempt at carving up the IUCN range for Oxybelis aeneus sensu lato following their distribution descriptions:

Oxybelis microphthalmus: Southeastern Arizona southward to Oaxaca, Mexico
Oxybelis vittatus: Panama likely southward into the Chocoan region of Colombia
Oxybelis potosiensis: This species occurs in San Luis Postosí and northern Veracruz, southward to Yucatan, Mexico, and Belize.
Oxybelis koehleri: This species occurs from Guatemala to Costa Rica in Central America.
Oxybelis rutherfordi: It occurs on both islands of Trinidad and Tobago and on the adjacent mainland of Venezuela, including Margarita Island and Los Testigos Archipelago. The species also is present in most of Northern Venezuela from the eastern Andes to the Peninsula de Paria, including the coastal ranges, and into French Guiana. It also occurs in lowland areas such as the Llanos and the Orinoco Delta in the Venezuelan Guayana.

A) does my interpretation of the ranges seem correct?
B) do folks want to follow RD or deviate?

Posted by loarie over 3 years ago

I posted more generally about the RD Dec 2020 update here to try to recruit some help researching the new taxa. See https://forum.inaturalist.org/t/dec-2020-reptile-database-taxonomic-update-help-wanted-with-new-species/18900

Posted by loarie over 3 years ago

Hi @loarie Thanks for this, I contacted John Murphy, one of the authors and he replied "The map is a good estimate. There is a third Oxybelis paper in review - (silly me thought we could publish it all in one paper), it will add two more species." He is on iNaturalist but is not a user, too busy with too many other projects at the moment!
I would say that following RD is the best option for now, the more that different sites/databases make up their own species lists the more confusing things will get. This is not saying that RD is always correct but if and when things change there we can update here. I'm more of a malacologist myself and I push using Molluscabase as the main source of what is and isn't a species, still a lot more to be added, especially in the Caribbean, but it is supported by a very good group of museum curators and experts worldwide and bit by bit they'll get there.

Posted by mikegrutherford about 3 years ago

Hi @loarie and @sandboa , I'm just checking in to see the progress on adding the new Oxybelis species.

Posted by mikegrutherford over 2 years ago

Hi Mike,
Steps are:
1) make inactive taxa for the new taxa (Oxybelis microphthalmus, etc.)
2) remove the taxon range for Oxybelis aeneus and optionally but strongly preferred replace it with a narrowed taxon range and add new taxon ranges for all the other species
3) update the atlas for Oxybelis aeneus to reflect sensu stricto and make atlases for the new taxa
4) make a draft taxon split with Oxybelis aeneus as the input and Oxybelis aeneus and the new taxa as outputs
5) commit the taxon split

do you want to help with 1-4? I'm happy to explain the steps in more detail

Posted by loarie over 2 years ago

Hi, @loarie

Yes I can help with 1-4, more detail would be good.

Mike

Posted by mikegrutherford over 2 years ago

Mike, awesome - here's more detail:
1) make inactive taxa for the new taxa (Oxybelis microphthalmus, etc.)
use https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/new to make inactive taxa for Oxybelis microphthalmus, Oxybelis vittatus, Oxybelis potosiensis, Oxybelis koehleri, & Oxybelis rutherfordi grafted to Oxybelis

2) remove the taxon range for Oxybelis aeneus and optionally but strongly preferred replace it with a narrowed taxon range and add new taxon ranges for all the other species
looks like someone already removed the senus lato taxon range. if you have access to a GIS make taxon ranges for all the outputs - I like to carve up the IUCN range using QGIS https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/198390/2523934

3) update the atlas for Oxybelis aeneus to reflect sensu stricto and make atlases for the new taxa
edit the Oxybelis aeneus atlas https://www.inaturalist.org/atlases/758 and create new atlases for Oxybelis microphthalmus, Oxybelis vittatus, Oxybelis potosiensis, Oxybelis koehleri, & Oxybelis rutherfordi

4) make a draft taxon split with Oxybelis aeneus as the input and Oxybelis aeneus etc.
use https://www.inaturalist.org/taxon_changes/new to make a taxon split draft with Oxybelis aeneus as the input and the same Oxybelis aeneus plus Oxybelis microphthalmus, Oxybelis vittatus, Oxybelis potosiensis, Oxybelis koehleri, & Oxybelis rutherfordi as outputs

Posted by loarie over 2 years ago
Posted by loarie over 2 years ago

@loarie I've made the inactive taxa for the 5 new species but still figuring out the next steps.

Posted by mikegrutherford over 2 years ago

@mikegrutherford I think this is ready to go if you wouldn't mind checking the atlases https://www.inaturalist.org/taxon_changes/107635

If you click on 'Analyze IDs' you can see whats going to happen to the IDs and can futz with the altases to try to improve things. I think most Columbia ids are going to be coarsened unless the atlases are made more precise. Here's what I see now:

Total IDs of input taxon: 5598
Number of IDs Destination Atlas
299 Oxybelis aeneus Atlased
1685 Oxybelis microphthalmus Atlased
758 Oxybelis vittatus Atlased
731 Oxybelis potosiensis Atlased
1112 Oxybelis koehleri Atlased
0 Oxybelis rutherfordi Atlased
897 Oxybelis Overlapping atlases

Posted by loarie about 2 years ago

Sorry to have been unresponsive on this! The map looks pretty good to me.

My one area of question would be the central depression of Chiapas, Mexico (area around Tuxtal Gutierrez). Right now you have that in the range of the Eastern/Yucatecan form (O. potosiensis). The fauna of this part of Chiapas is more closely tied to the Pacific Coast fauna typically so I think it should be O. microphthalmus. We have a few records from that area in iNat.

Unfortunately, the study didn't sample that area but it makes more biogeographic sense to include the basin in the Pacific population.
The records near Parque Laguna Lachua in Guatemala are tricky. I'm not sure which of the three species they are going to fall under?

Posted by sandboa about 2 years ago

currently the atlases for O. microphthalmus and O. potosiensis both include Chiapas so those IDs would be rolled back to genus

Posted by loarie about 2 years ago

Hi, The atlases for Oxybelis aeneus , microphthalmus, vittatus, potosiensis, and koehleri all correspond well with the paper but the one for rutherfordi has a chunk of the atlas missing from the south west corner of Trinidad into Venezuela and needs the two sections to be joined together. In the map up above there shouldn't be that grey gap on the eastern side of the distribution for rutherfordi. I would fix it myself but I don't know how!

Posted by mikegrutherford almost 2 years ago

Can you open the atlas for rutherfordi and alter it as needed. We just need the atlases to be 'good enough' for the split. The range maps are just a guide

Posted by loarie almost 2 years ago

@loarie Hi Scott, I think I've done what I can to the atlas for rutherfordi, https://uk.inaturalist.org/atlases/43033 I've added the countries where it is found but the atlas still has a warning because the pink area is missing a chunk of Trinidad. But I have no idea how to fix that. Thanks for all your help with this, I know you are very busy on iNat so it is much appreciated.

Posted by mikegrutherford almost 2 years ago

looping in duplicate flag from here https://www.inaturalist.org/flags/569177

Posted by loarie almost 2 years ago

Ok I committed - I think the atlases did a pretty good job of sorting IDs:
Total IDs of input taxon: 6379
Number of IDs Destination Atlas
380 Oxybelis aeneus Atlased
1919 Oxybelis microphthalmus Atlased
829 Oxybelis vittatus Atlased
840 Oxybelis potosiensis Atlased
1314 Oxybelis koehleri Atlased
343 Oxybelis rutherfordi Atlased
125 Oxybelis Outside of all atlases
431 Oxybelis Overlapping atlases

But here's links to those in overlapping atlases
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/identify?reviewed=any&quality_grade=needs_id%2Cresearch&verifiable=any&id=136422835%2C135744453%2C134666608%2C132979683%2C130945912%2C129475888%2C129310561%2C127915918%2C127881699%2C120731374%2C125838543%2C126299348%2C126057113%2C124256965%2C125196015%2C120684021%2C119079449%2C116094778%2C96581135%2C107367964%2C7339427%2C9550146%2C93207177%2C105268148%2C106622189%2C41423398%2C100498650%2C95674392%2C39254728%2C91207032%2C3886037%2C88871512%2C15739529%2C21089881%2C43199430%2C43809088%2C43809089%2C66429773%2C67541256%2C69431784%2C70949746%2C1547971%2C39407%2C43991%2C38906%2C134370%2C5083502%2C1850484%2C6381324%2C6561385%2C10770248%2C10788228%2C8522244%2C6804666%2C9004248%2C21506298%2C11427876%2C12837857%2C15121901%2C17007334%2C31094749%2C40582092%2C38223495%2C48165631%2C41895081%2C42331599%2C42364662%2C44599634%2C57471319%2C48606744%2C49346862%2C49683143%2C49683144%2C56081556%2C64394034%2C63935173%2C71996064%2C68212868%2C67472804%2C67786902%2C68215830%2C68751147%2C68834098%2C79967208%2C471371%2C1971397%2C2899747%2C8180014%2C9359564%2C19012810%2C37229835%2C38344211%2C38889568%2C39580992%2C45416305%2C45701270%2C47112528%2C66342483%2C70425687%2C74968845%2C83885024%2C81477424%2C71692458%2C70416175

and outside of all atlases
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/identify?reviewed=any&quality_grade=needs_id%2Cresearch&verifiable=any&id=130893347%2C119822224%2C120177941%2C122203716%2C113206998%2C108882327%2C104475761%2C102350754%2C100536690%2C100384464%2C99867714%2C98406070%2C98384078%2C85715456%2C51801%2C3714609%2C8543526%2C8590088%2C21680356%2C62984385%2C65091817%2C72792336%2C7589127%2C7634720%2C18952906%2C25066113%2C34801438%2C51126121%2C52427722%2C65220092%2C85381535%2C82691209%2C81580397%2C79417078%2C75105825%2C73915213%2C72213155%2C71522199%2C67171017%2C67051420%2C65533414%2C64558072%2C61207655%2C60093686%2C58990258%2C57973478%2C56403694%2C55697159%2C54057932%2C51655293%2C49218941%2C45329830%2C42598557%2C42595328%2C40015988%2C39549718%2C39254729%2C38287336%2C37287672%2C35540656%2C33330874%2C26115291%2C22418366%2C20585569%2C9212317%2C8540090%2C2985257%2C465101

that were rolled back to genus if you want to help roll them forward to the correct species

Posted by loarie over 1 year ago

Geographic distribution of O. rutherfordi. Everything seems to indicate that the populations of the Caribbean and Inter-Andean Valleys of Colombia correspond to O. vittatus. Check one of my observations:

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/144061813

Diagnostic features visible in this photo confirm the ID of O. vittatus.

Posted by phorusrhacoslongi... 12 months ago

may well be true - thanks for your help IDing. We can update the taxon range down the road if the observations and IDs give more clarity on this boundary

Posted by loarie 12 months ago

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