Improving this project
If you have any ideas for improving this project, please suggest them here ...
Posted by
tonyrebelo,
December 29, 2021 02:48 PM
tonyrebelo,
December 29, 2021 02:48 PM
If you have any ideas for improving this project, please suggest them here ...
tonyrebelo,
December 29, 2021 02:48 PM
Comments
@tonyrebelo I wonder if more behaviours could be added to the Ant Behaviour project, to incorporate data in other projects and make them obsolete and to be cancelled.
Accepting other arthropods and NOT attacking them.
Links to other insects, spiders, millipedes etc that coexist happilly with ants.
(a) in or near the ants nest ( eg https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/101176669 (b) in random enounters
2, nuptial flights - when and under what condition of temp/ wetness/dryness Tine of day
This project needs demolishing, incorporating or improving ! https://www.inaturalist.org/projects/nuptial-flights-of-ants-in-africa
3 mating
eg https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/62415601
4 dumping of ant rubbish/ dead bodies./ remains of seeds
5 size of ant holes - some little ants make big holes ! https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/97545050
I dont know how this could be incorporated bit I think diameters of nest entrances derserves to be recorded somewhere.
Im sure ill think of more.
I wonder if there is a need for a special project on winged ants,
which are attracted to light/uv
Many never get identified. perhaps us observers need to learn to make much better pics of the winged versions.
Accepted values currently available.
Communication
Defence
Learning
Nesting
Mating
Cultivation and Farming
Navigation
Locomotion
Cooperation and competition
Warfare and raiding
Slavery and Slaves
Casual interactions
Predation/food
Feeding on ants
Hosts
Myrmecochory
Mimicry (see https://www.inaturalist.org/projects/ant-mimics)
Other
Accepting other arthropods.
Interactions with other animals come under:
eaten: food
predator: ants get eaten
parasites (consumed without immediate killing of the ants)
casual - no real interaction (or no apparent interaction, just nearby)
farming (protecting, housing and milking - with the ants orchestrating the process)
protection = this goes from casual (nearby the ants) to intense (farming), with various steps on the way, like caterpillars or plants that are not farmed but appease the ants for projection, to trees that the ants keep clear of seedlings, etc. Not sure what to do here, or how many steps on the way.
Now your cases.
in ants nests we have as "hosts" - but near ants nests: ?? best as casual interactions - unless you can prove in that instance that the critter is benefiting (other than eating ants).
random encounters - ?? include under casual interactions
(Sorry I am looking for guidance and trying to rationalize. Some input required here)
Nuptual Flights and Mating.
These go hand in hand. I dont know if separating them is useful. So Nuptual flights under "Mating"
In fact, include all "winged ants" under this category?
If it is a pair in copulo then also add Project "Mating Pair"
I see this is a global project. why not have separate projects for different areas ( eg southern Africa or North America and hen bring them together in an umbrella for the whole world. In this way we stay focused on the behaviours of our own areas.
2 why have competition and cooperation lumped together ? are they not opposites ?
3 What is a casual interaction ? The dull-minded people like me need to have this explained.
More specialised behaviours !
(a) ants on flowers
(b) ants feeding from extrafloral nectaries
(c) ants caring for aphids and homoptera
Now i see the danger is having too many options.
Dumping and Holes
Are these not just aspects of "Nesting" - where does one stop?
type of Nests, position of nests, position of holes in nests, number of holes to nests, size of holes to nests, etc.
Middens (dumps): again just nesting: but also evidence of prey items (file under prey).
I dont want 100 categories, just a handful. So let us regard these as part of Nesting?
After all: think of all the possible nesting behaviours and types.
Global Project
If you can tell me what behaviours we have in southern Africa different from global, then I will entertain that idea.
Meantime, use the project and just add a place filter: e.g.
Southern Africa: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?place_id=113055&project_id=ant-behaviour&verifiable=any
Botswana: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?place_id=7105&project_id=ant-behaviour&verifiable=any
competition and cooperation
I was envisaging this as an interaction between different ANT species.
But also as a catchall for other interactions. But mostly it will be competition. For cooperation with non-ant species we have all the other categories already: food, host, farming, etc.
casual interaction
This is an interaction where even non dull-minded people cannot assign it to another category. Where there might be an interaction, or perhaps not? (e.g. is the ant and spider on a leaf ignoring each other an interaction or chance, or a dance where the instance of opportunity did not arise, or simply mutual avoidance, but perhaps still benefiting from one or others presence?
If it is a global project it would be nice to have an option for ant nests in swollen thorns to bring these speciaised nesting behavior observations together.
More specialised behaviours !
(a) ants on flowers - I seriously considered adding this, but it is clearly indicated in the interactions project. No need to duplicate it here.
(b) ants feeding from extrafloral nectaries
(c) ants caring for aphids and homoptera (that is farming)
Only three: I can think of half a dozen more, and if I stretch myself, I am sure I could split it into over a dozen types. Let us keep it simple. If you want to add details, then please use the Description or the Comments.
Perhaps my biggest bugbear since starting this project is how little people actually note about their observations. A picture may say a thousand words, but a few notes are worth a million unsaid.
What field is to be used for ants that died of fungus?
And ants scouting or wandering?
What field is to be used for ants that died of fungus? - perhaps "feeding on ants"
And ants scouting or wandering? - perhaps locomotion?
(Sorry I am looking for guidance and trying to rationalize. Some input required here)
Can you add 'trophallaxis' to the behaviour types, please
@peterslingsby
Do you have a term that the layman can understand?
@ tonyrebelo Trophallaxis is the mouth to mouth transfer of regurgitated food - essentially liquids - from one individual to another, usually in ants, bees wasps or termites. It's commonly called trophallaxis and the layman's term for it is trophallaxis, though with some imagination one could think up much more disgusting terms for it - our dog, for example, indulges in autotrophallaxis, also known as getting your own back. Seriously, it is sadly one of those terms that has no other word but remains impossible to spell, either way. See Ants of SA page 10.
Re the fungus problem above, the common term understood all over the entomological world is 'zombie fungus' because of the way the fungi appear to invade the victim's brain or nervous system [is it 'fungi' or 'fungae'? My Latin has left me I fear]
'Scouting' or 'wandering' ants - - the very easy and acceptable word is 'foraging', which is what such ants are up to.
'Foraging' is looking for food. No ants simply wander, that's a thing for poetically-minded humans. 'Scouting' does not mean looking for food, it means looking for danger essentially, which ants don't do either - they don't like danger anymore than most humans.
Sorry, last one. I like this new project a lot and am thinking my way through the behaviours and even more suggestions. One I can think of at once is 'trailing', which only some ants do and can be an important identifier [ie running in trails like the ones at your house]
You need to have parasitism, where some ants are parasitical on other species, ie they actually live in the host's nest and steal food from them. Not quite the same as hosting - eg butterfly larvae where the flutterbys reward the ants with sweet secretions. Parasitic ants like all true parasites give nothing back ...
Again: trailing is foraging (well 80% of the tiime)
Foraging is also "predation/food" (and for many people: scouting is for food).
"Ant parasitism" is very interesting. (except that it is not parasitism, but foraging and nest sharing) Surely it goes with slavery, or hosts?
My issue is that I want a simple, short, unambiguous list. One where activities are obvious and exclusive and used.
I am very tempted to suggest that every month the bottom three categories get sunk into "other", and the top category gets split into three.
For instance: https://www.inaturalist.org/observation_fields/14522
.* should "defence" go under "warfare and raiding"?
.* should "navigation" go under "locomotion" (which is where "trailing" belongs?)? But how does locomotion differ from foraging?
.* should "communication" go under "learning"?
.* would trophallaxis ever be used?
And hand in hand here, goes terminology: these are 1-3 word phrases for complex behaviours - do they make unambiguous sense?
e.g. "feeding on ants" includes "Zombi Fungus"
And all this is quite apart from the fact that these are not really behaviours we are dealing with but pictures. Some of which unambiguously illustrate a behaviour, but some of which are widely open to interpretation.
"Again: trailing is foraging (well 80% of the tiime)" - absolutely not. Foraging is looking for food, singly or in tiny groups of 2-3. Trailing is one of many things - collecting food that has been foraged [but is not foraging - would you classify cooking as the same as eating?] Trailing is also moving the nest to a new site which has 0 to do with foraging.
"Foraging is also "predation/food" (and for many people: scouting is for food)." Scouting = foraging, and is for food. Its just that foraging is so much better English because it is precise whereas scouting is absolutely not, as it can mean other things.
Foraging is not necessarily predation, in English looking for plant food is not considered to be predation. Otherwise vegans would instantly starve to death.
As active ants spend an awful lot of time, probably most of their time, foraging, without this term the project fails.
""Ant parasitism" is very interesting. (except that it is not parasitism, but foraging and nest sharing) Surely it goes with slavery, or hosts?"
Ant parasitism has nothing at all to do with foraging. Anoplolepis nuptialis lives as a dealate queen, alate females and males but no workers in nests of A custodiens, where none of them ever forage, they just hang around eating the grub brought home by the doff custies, hence are parasites upon their hosts who do all the foraging and food collection on their behalf. They contribute absolutely 0 towards their hosts. There are lots of cunning ant spp that do this.
You want a short, unambiguous list and when I am finished drawing six new maps you will get one, if not sooner. You can't put defence under warfare, and raiding should be separate too. Navigation is unnecessary, you can't photograph an ant navigating, they have inbuilt compasses that you can't see..
I have taken the first step by copying your original list so that I can edit this. You jumped in a little hastily, a bit more initial consultation would have been a good idea.
You took too long to respond! A little sooner would have helped.
If I had waited until you were ready I would have waited into the next year.
Looking forward to seeing the revised list. Please include Tony's and Magda's points.
I might have responded, but I have other fish to fry ... ants are but a passing fancy in my hectic overburdened life. I have 6 maps to draw and four books to write, but why am I troubling you with all this? You are right. I will get on with it as soon as my visiting sister in law has settled in.
Dont forget! we want survey the ants at Tokai.
Preferably with a technique that we can rollout to schools. It must be dogproof and simple.
Oh, only a small ask ...
Oh, it was only a reminder ...
@tonyrebelo My short-listed suggestions are
Communication [antennal contact, stridulation]
Defence/Warfare [nest defence/territorial expansion]
Nesting/nest building [excavating/constructing with debris]
Cultivation/Farming [fungus growing/aphid etc 'milking']
Cooperation/Trophallaxis [joint action/food sharing]
Foraging [searching for food]
Scavenging [eating dead insects, birds etc]
Predation [attacking live organism for food]
Collecting [removing food to the nest]
Raiding other ants/termites [a specific form of predation]
Hosting/Parasitism [for mutual benefit versus for no benefit]
Slavery/Slaves [not in Africa]
Myrmecochory [as distinct from seed predation]
Plant protection [inhabiting thorn galls, extra-floral nectaries etc]
Mimicry [as in https://www.inaturalist.org/projects/ant-mimics but also ants imitating other ants]
Trailing [moving liquid food/relocating nests]
Other
Mating, ie nuptial flights etc I would suggest is not necessary - any alate ant is thus engaged; Navigation and Locomotion ... can't think of any specifics that can be shown in still photographs; Competition covered by defence/warfare; raiding should not be joined to warfare as it's specifically for food whereas warfare is generally not; casual interactions ... not understood. They don't blow each other's noses for example. Some lick each other especially the injured and this has been shown to be a form of nursing/doctoring, which could be a category.
There are categories found overseas but not here, eg river rafting, vampirism, chain-ganging, suicide bombing , infanticide etc
Hope this helps.
Thanks. That helps. But.
Most importantly: we cannot change any names. It will mean that all data captured so far is lost. Not an issue for categories with 1-5 observations, but changing 100s of observations is not practical.
Questions and Issues
Mating: that is important - perhaps reword: Alates (winged ants present).
Combine Foraging and Collecting?
More anon ...
OK, I have tried matching our lists and they are not that different.
Firstly things on my list not on yours:
• Casual interactions 31 (obs so far) - this deals with ants and other organisms avoiding or ignoring each other in close proximity. So we keep.
• Feeding on ants 29 - this is other animals eating ants. You did not consider this, but we keep.
• Learning 0 - drop
• Navigation 3 - drop
• Mating 21 - keep: any observations with alates.
Secondly: things on your list, not on mine.
• Plant protection [inhabiting thorn galls, extra-floral nectaries etc] - this is two things. living in thorns is surely nesting; defending thorn nests is defence. But extra floral nectaries is feeding - any observations of chasing leaf feeders or plant parasites is predation.
• Foraging [searching for food] = it appears that so far this has been captured as "Locomotion" - unfortunately we have 220 cases so far, so changing it from the inappropriate "Locomotion"to the better "Foraging" is not practical.
• Collecting [removing food to the nest] - this is the same as foraging (=Locomotion: see notes above): taking food to the nest, but also predation - and if the food is identifiable, then it will be usually be seen as predation.
• Trailing [moving liquid food/relocating nests] - I think we need to remove the nesting/food criterion. The issue though is how we distinguish trailing versus normal movement. Basically ants moving in a line is trailing. Are there any ways to separate simply moving food to the nest, versus "moving in a trail"?
• Scavenging - you make the distinction between live predation and scavenging, whereas we had only "predation". That is worthwhile, but with 365 observations under Predation, we now have to pull these two apart. But what does one do if one is not certain if it is scavenging versus predation? Where does this go?
Where we agree:
• Communication 5 Communication [antennal contact, stridulation]
• Cooperation and competition 18 Cooperation/Trophallaxis [joint action/food sharing]
• Cultivation and Farming 99 Cultivation/Farming [fungus growing/aphid etc 'milking']
• Defence 1 Defence/Warfare [nest defence/territorial expansion]
• Hosts 6 Hosting/Parasitism [for mutual benefit versus for no benefit]
• Locomotion 222 Foraging [searching for food] & Collecting [removing food to the nest]
• Mimicry 1 Mimicry- also imitating other ants]
• Myrmecochory 2 Myrmecochory [as distinct from seed predation]
• Nesting 112 Nesting/nest building [excavating/constructing with debris]
• Predation/food 365 Predation [attacking live organism for food]
• Slavery and Slaves 2 Slavery/Slaves [not in Africa]
• Warfare and raiding 13 Raiding other ants/termites [a specific form of predation]
• Other 17 Other
OK: what next?
@tonyrebelo OK whats next ?
food preferences ? What do ants do when there is a wide choice of foods/prey ? Which potential food stimulates their tastebuds the most so they focus attention on getting that food.
I have been making observations of one species of ant going crazy about attacking any wasp sp when there is a wide range of different insects avaiilable as easy pickings ( eg near a lamp at night). They either see wasps as the worst enemy that must be torn to shreds ( defence) or a great food. I hope i can observe this behavioiur again if i can get the right ant species in my new garden.
Disappointed about foraging as it is the term used by myrmecologists. It's not the same as collecting food. Looking for a steakhouse is not the same as buying the steak. And 'locomotion' covers everything an ant does except when it is dead, so it is simply a daft term to equate with foraging. If you added foraging we could gradually convert those of the 200+ that are actually foraging and not just frolicking around.
Ants being eaten by creatures other than ants is not ant behaviour. When I eat that steak at last is that 'bovine behaviour'? Of course not. Drop it.
Trailing: a very specific activity restricted to certain species and potentially useful in ID. It is for example noteworthy that ants that live in supercolonies are always trailers, whereas those that do not are seldom trailers. Trails are not just ants following ants. It's a very specific form of behaviour in which the individual dabs a droplet of a specific 'move towards me' pheromone on the ground. Every subsequent ant that moves towards and smells the droplet leaves another. The trail thus established guides the rest of the colony efficiently towards to food source and/or the nest to be moved. Ants that move in groups such as Megaponera are not trailing - they are all moving in a bunch together to attack prey, they all move home again together when they've grabbed enough termites. Their behaviour is more akin to swarming. Watch the trailing ants that infest your home. You'll notice that there are ants moving in both directions on the trail; those going one way may be carrying larvae [moving house] or have distended gasters, while those going the other way are carrying nothing or have empty gasters. Why can't you simply add the category? Surely if you can drop categories you can add them? If you make me a curator I would add them.
Dropped two fields. Three Navigation changed to Locomotion.
Adding categories is not an issue at all: we can create 2000000000 new categories. But no one would use them and it will cause confusion.
And what we call it is irrelevant. What is important is how we define and delimit it.
So I will be happy to change category names, but only if someone is prepared to do 365 or 222 changes to the fields: otherwise the data are simply lost. I am not prepared for a gradual change: I would want it done immediately. The longer it takes the longer the confusion.
Being eaten: you are thinking behaviour versus observations. Observations of ants being eaten is a behaviour focussing on ants. It is a useful categorization of what an ant is doing: being eaten. (just like it will be useful to someone to know that you ate beef 30% of your meals: 50% as steak, 12% as stew or roast, 4% as curry and 1% tartar, etc.)
All of which goes to show that you were much too hasty in setting this up - you assumed we were all ready to jump at your speed! Consequently the project will not have the value that it should, and consequently I'm afraid I shall no longer use it. If you think locomotion is the same as foraging ... to me that is sad. And I still don't understand why you can't simply add a few fields. I'm afraid it's Rebelo being obdurate again. Get off it.
To which I will only add: I tried to be helpful and got a bucket of iced water in my face in return. Thanks.
And by the way, why do have to delete 'locomotion'? You can leave it there so we can all have a good laugh. There is no confusion in the word 'foraging' unless you can't speak English of course.
You do throw your toys out of the cot at the slightest provocation..
Why dont you look at the fields before you complain that they have not been added.
I will change Locomotion to Foraging if you agree to change or get the fields changed from Locomotion to Foraging.
I did not suggest changing locomotion to foraging - see above. I merely said that it was different and that foraging should be added. I don't give a damn if 'locomotion' remains there, but I could not associate 'locomotion' with 'foraging' in my wildest dreams - it was your association. I shall leave it there - what's the point in trying to be constructive? Perhaps it's time to forage in different fields ...
@tonyrebelo @peterslingsby
I'm interested in observing invertebrates that seem to live happily alongside ants under rocks ( perhaps being protected by the ants) I realise this is not ant behaviour.How should I properly use the Ant Behaviour project to do so if that is appropiate. ais it hosting if there is no obvious benefit to the ants
I have created this project for my own personal convenience and use.
https://www.inaturalist.org/projects/possible-anoplolepis-ant-associations-in-serowe
Animals scavenging or feeding on ant rubbish/dead ants in middens. Is this hosing ?https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/144959692
You can also use the Interactions project. Ants would be passive and the invertebrates "associated with".
There are already zillions of projects - if you can use an existing one, then consider that.
Ant commensals dont sit comfortably under ant behaviour: the project is about what ants are doing.
Also, consider using tags. If the number of observations gets big enough, or if enough people are interested, then a project will be warranted.
Y@tonyrebelo yes I'm also slowly adding to interactions as well.
Can projects be abused or overused ?
Is there a limit ? Have the developers of iNat set a limit or are they proud to boast of the number of projects and its annual growth ? See the projects graph at the bottom of this page. https://www.inaturalist.org/stats 25000 more projects in 22. Is that good or bad or overloading the website and servers ?Can't projects be for private use for one or a tiny number of people ? Are we not encouraging small--user-number projects when we promote a project for every inaturalist backyard ? https://www.inaturalist.org/projects/home-projects-umbrella. Perhaps there are 3 million backyards for 6 millon iNaturalists. That's a zillion of projects to aim for, .
2 I created the project
https://www.inaturalist.org/projects/possible-anoplolepis-ant-associations-in-serowe
because I was asked by a Polish University Dept for information about beetles living in close association with the ants in my area. The project stimulates and reminds me to collect more data and turn over more rocks. Tags wouldnt do that ! The project also shows the network under my local rocks ! Which spiders live with the beetles that live with the ants. One day i shall find out who eats who if Im lucky
3 Its a pity so many of the best African projects stop at the Chobe or Zambesi ! eg Interactions (SAf) I would love to see something similar for a wider area in Africa or the whole of Africa ! Northern Botswana may have more in common with DRC, Angola and Zambia than with Cape and Karoo. I do think Central Africa and other Africa regions needs a duplication of the great projects you have initiated. This will mean a multitude of projects or do we just make projects for the whole of Africa then filter them ?
4 You say that 'Ant commensals dont sit comfortably under ant behaviour: the project is about what ants are doing.'
I think I could use the Ant Behaviour project to find out which tenebrionidae beetles are living happily alongside which ants ( as hosts) but how do I use the Interactions project to get the same information or tags ? Perhaps Ant Commensals really do sit comfortably with Ant Behaviour because the ants are behaving like ladies and gentlemen in allowing the other species to live alongside them without getting eaten. Are there projects for documenting commensal relationships on a larger scale or should a commensal relationships be given a special place in the interactions project ? How do I document a commensal relationship suitable for a South Central African area ( Bots, Angola, Zambia, Malawi and Zim)? Could the Interactions (sAf) be extended northwards in Africa ? Why are ants considered to be the passives in a commensal relationship ? Sorry, too many questions and thoughtless babbling to myself I'll shut up now. Thanks for all the stimulating help and advice you have given in 22 !
Off now to the third day of feasting: how on earth can I not become as round as a ball?
Have spent the last two days on
https://www.inaturalist.org/projects/unknown-proteaceae
https://www.inaturalist.org/projects/unknown-trees-of-southern-africa-1
so have not given much thought to your conundrums.
Very briefly.
Why limit projects? But the more projects, the more confused users get. Stay with projects that you are personally involved and interested in.
*No: --- (s Afr) are not limited to southern Africa: that is just where we started them: yes use them throughout Africa or the world. There is no restriction - the region is just where we promoted it most.
Ant interactions. I am still trying to motive for an interactions module. So use that instead. Then you will be able to select: associated with Anaplolepis - and they will be all there. But feel free to do other projects too: it is easy to extract data from these projects; although only if the links are in fields.
I think that you are wrong. Most of Botswana (the Kalahari Thornveld) is most similar to Namibia and the Northern Province. Most of eastern Botswana is similar to Zimabwe and Limpopo Yes, the area north of the swamps is probably most similar to Zambia - but that is a small fraction of the country. I think on BIogeographical grounds you are torn between the Kalahari of the Cape Flora and the eastern Zimbabwean flora (Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania, Zambia). But both the Cape and Zimbabwean flora are mainly in southern Africa. Biogeographically the major cutoff zones are the Kunene River, Caprivi and Zambesi River - for both the plants and animals The major exception is the eastern lowland coastal forest, which continue to Kenya.
Chow: time to feast.
Have a great Xmas, and will see you on the other side, in time for New Year greetings and festivities.
Enjoy!
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