Flag for Taxon: Tuberoses (Genus Manfreda)
| Flagger | Content Author | Content | Reason | Flag Created | Resolved by | Resolution |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| loarie | Tuberoses (Genus Manfreda) |
follow POWO and sink into Agave? |
Feb. 12, 2019 01:00:58 +0000 | loarie |
see comments |
Comments
FNA has these in Manfreda, though Weakley 2018 notes "The separation of Manfreda is not warranted."
please do not do this, i do not know what are the basis for this change, but Agave and Manfreda are very very different things, besides, we have Manfreda scabra and Agave scabra among other species with the same epithet, so if a change must be done, then first we have to revise the overlapping species; this problem happen years ago and we lost some species in the process.
we can separate manfreda from agave because Agave has oxalates in sap as a forage repellent, also present hard and continuous fiber in leaves (ixtle and sisal are obtained from this), and also this genus can produce sugars in the center of the plant (we make pulque, mezcal and tequila with this),the flower is a lignified spike and flowers are not pendular
in Manfreda genus the plants are very small, without oxalates, without fiber, without sugars, not lignified spikelet and mainly pendular flowers
whats the list of Manfreda sp, @najera_tutor?
as long as i know this is correct
http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/search?q=manfreda
I agree with Pedro, Why? what are the evidence? Keep Manfreda separate from Agave.
al rato van a meter a Polianthes en Agave, que no inventen
We need to be carefully with POWO, mainly in case of huge taxonomic changes like this or with not strong bibliography evidence enough. I think nobody in Mexico will accept Manfreda into Agave, at least for the moment.
Here some differences between those genus
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=10019
Transferences from Manfreda, Polianthes and Bravoa to Agave have been made years ago (Thiede and others).
Aarón Rodríguez and Arturo Castro arca68@hotmail.com are much best informed about this. As far as I know they still maintain those genera.
Much better 😊
This has already partially been merged - Manfreda virginica is now in the iNat database as Agave virginica, but the genus Manfreda is still active. It's causing some confusion with people who know it as Manfreda virginica - they are IDing plants as "Manfreda" now instead of Agave virginica. See: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/1387701
Deviate Manfreda virginica too!
i think i did aready
Thanks Pedro!
I have this set up as a deviation from POWO
https://www.inaturalist.org/taxon_framework_relationships/411192
if someone could make sure that the list of Manfreda species and their POWO Agave analogues are all accounted for in that deviation that would be great
In my opinion, the proposal to transfer Manfreda, Polianthes and Prochnyanthes to Agave is hasty and without solid foundations. The phylogenetic analyzes on which some authors have based their proposals are not conclusive and are incomplete, since there is no good representation of the three genera in question. On the other hand, it seems that the DNA regions that have been used in the analyzes are not informative enough or are highly conserved. There is asynchronous between molecular and morphological evolution.
The morphological differences pointed out by other specialists in this forum are very true and support the recognition of the four genera. In conclusion, let us continue to recognize them separately.
revisar :
Hi @loarie. It looks like it was decided to keep Manfreda, Polianthes and Prochnyanthes separate from Agave in a deviation from POWO. This does seem to be the best approach as the phylogenetic analyses seem incomplete for these genera.
I’m using this paper by @arturocastro as the basis for most Polianthes taxonomy:
Castro-Castro, Arturo & Flores-Argüelles, Alejandra & Hernandez-Lopez, Leticia & Rodríguez, Aarón. (2016). Polianthes quilae (Poliantheae, Agavaceae), a New and Endemic Species to Western Mexico. Systematic Botany. 41. 10.1600/036364416X692316.
On that basis, it seems there are a few more Agave taxa that should actually be in Polianthes or Manfreda. What's the correct process to handle that? Does the taxon framework need to be changed before the taxon moves are submitted?
1. The following taxa are listed as Agave in iNat but should be moved to Polianthes:
Agave alboaustralis --> Polianthes alboaustralis (new taxon)
Agave amica --> Polianthes tuberosa
Agave coetocapnia --> Polianthes geminiflora
Agave coetocapnia ssp. clivicola --> Polianthes geminiflora ssp clivicola (new taxon)
Agave coetocapnia ssp. coetocapnia --> Polianthes geminiflora ssp geminiflora (new taxon)
Agave coetocapnia ssp. pueblensis --> Polianthes geminiflora ssp pueblensis (new taxon)
Agave graminifolia --> Polianthes graminifolia (new taxon)
Agave neocernua --> Polianthes cernua (new taxon)
Agave quilae --> Polianthes quilae (new taxon)
2. The following taxon is listed as Agave in iNat but should be moved to Manfreda:
Agave guttata --> Manfreda guttata.
(Note: This isn’t a full list, just one species I came across in passing.)
3. We should add this new taxon described in 2019.
Polianthes venustuliflora (new taxon)
Solano, Eloy & García-Mendoza, Abisaí & Ríos-Gómez, Ramiro. (2012). Polianthes venustuliflora (Asparagaceae, Agavoideae), una especie nueva endémica de Michoacán, México. Act. Bot. Mex no.126 Pátzcuaro 2019 Epub 17-Feb-2020. https://doi.org/10.21829/abm126.2019.1441
4. I have doubts about the following taxa.
Polianthes durangensis. Unlisted in A. Castro-Castro 2016 or Barba-Gonzalez 2012. Apparently a synonym for Polianthes palustris but I can’t find the source that synonymized this.
Polianthes elongata. Unclear to me if this is a synonym for Manfreda elongata or a separate taxon.
Polianthes michoacana. Described by M.Cedano, Delgad. & Enciso in Boletin del Instituto Botanica Guadalajara, 1: 522, (1993 publ. 1995). Unlisted in A. Castro-Castro 2016 or Barba-Gonzalez 2012.
Polianthes pringlei. Not listed in A. Castro-Castro 2016. Listed in Barba-Gonzalez 2012.
5. The following taxa appear already to be set up correctly within Polianthes without duplicates in Agave but we may want to check the taxon framework and synonyms.
Polianthes bicolor (not Agave bicolor).
Polianthes densiflora
Polianthes howardii
Polianthes longiflora
Polianthes montana
Polianthes multicolor
Polianthes nelsonii. Listed but not keyed in A. Castro-Castro 2016.
Polianthes oaxacana
Polianthes palustris
Polianthes platyphylla.
Polianthes sessiliflora (not Agave scabra).
Polianthes tuberosa
Polianthes zapopanensis
great thanks for helping sort this out!
Thanks @loarie. Should I jump in and start adding to the taxon framework relationships? Do we need more review first?
if you start by making the swaps once you're done I can help with the Agave <-> Agave,Manfreda, Polianthes and Prochnyanthes deviation
Great! I'll give that a try.
OK, I added a new taxon for Polianthes venustifolia and drafted all the taxon changes for the Agave --> Polianthes reversions listed in section 1: https://www.inaturalist.org/taxon_changes?change_group=2021+Polianthes+recovery
As it doesn't seem there was anyone advocating for these species to be in Agave I'm going to proceed with commiting the changes. Very few observations or IDs are involved. Once that's done I'll ask for @loarie's help with formalizing the deviation.
I also discovered that Agave guttata --> Manfreda guttata change I mentioned isn't actually necessary, as this species remains at Manfreda guttata although there's an old uncommitted taxon change to move it to Agave.
Lastly, I'd appreciate help from knowledgeable iNat users (@najera_tutor, @arturocasto, @socogonzalez, @pioleon, @aztekium_tutor) to determine the validity (or synonymization) of P. durangensis, P. elongata, P. michoacana and P. pringlei and also to review iNat's other Polianthes species.
looks great to me, after committing these if you can describe how we're deviating in a comment here, e.g. for the taxa in the clade that don't match POWO list how we have those taxa here and whats on POWO, ie Agave guttata <-> Manfreda guttata etc. I can use that to make the deviation. thanks for all the hard work!
Hi @loarie. It looks like all the commits have gone through OK. The deviation we're making is basically an update to https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/290891-Polianthes-tuberosa/taxonomy_details . We're choosing for iNat to recognize separate genera for Manfreda, Polianthes and Prochnyanthes in place of treating these as sections within Agave sensu lato.
Thiede and Eggli (2019) treat these as sections within their Agave subg. Manfreda:
Manfreda ≡ Agave sect. Herbaceae
Polianthes + Prochnyanthes ≡ Agave sect. Polianthes
Here are all the Polianthes deviations needed in addition to those you already have listed for this taxon framework, plus a couple more deviations to reflect recently described Manfreda species that POWO places in Agave.
Internal — External
Polianthes alboaustralis — Agave alboaustralis
Polianthes cernua — Agave neocernua
Polianthes geminiflora — Agave coetocapnia
Polianthes geminiflora var. clivicola — Agave coetocapnia var. clivicola
Polianthes geminiflora var. geminiflora — Agave coetocapnia var. coetocapnia
Polianthes geminiflora var. pueblensis — Agave coetocapnia var. pueblensis
Polianthes graminifolia —Agave graminifolia
Polianthes quilae — Agave quilae
Polianthes tuberosa — Agave amica
Polianthes venustuliflora — Agave venustuliflora
Manfreda occidentalis — Agave occidentalis
Manfreda santana-michelii — Agave santamichelii (yes, Thiede and Eggli also removed the hyphen)
OK that deviation should now be up to date
what about Agave paniculata/Manfreda paniculata? We seem to have both
Also looks like POWO would suggest doing the following. Can each of these be made or can you call out specific deviations?
Agave cantala -> Agave vivipara
Agave capensis -> Agave aurea capensis
Agave colimana -> Agave ortgiesiana
Agave cordillerensis -> Agave americana americana
Agave desmettiana -> Agave demeesteriana
Agave rigida -> Agave angustifolia angustifolia
Agave lurida -> Agave vera-cruz
Agave promontorii -> Agave aurea promontorii
Agave neglecta -> Agave weberi
Agave deserti pringlei -> Agave pringlei
Agave deserti deserti -> Agave deserti
Agave angustifolia marginata -> Agave angustifolia angustifolia
Agave attenuata pedunculifera -> Agave attenuata
Agave mapisaga lisa -> Agave mapisaga
Agave mitis albicans -> Agave mitis
Agave mitis mitis -> Agave mitis
Agave vivipara rubescens -> Agave angustifolia rubescens
Also these are active Agave in iNat that I can't match in POWO
Agave garciamartinezii
Agave gypsicola
Agave beauleriana
Agave univittata
Agave willdingii
Agave lyobaa
Agave megalodonta
Agave nussaviorum
Agave pygmaea
Agave quiotepecensis
Agave ×
Thanks @loarie. Clearly, those additional taxa should all be resolved one way or the other. Unfortunately, I have no knowledge that would help guide those decisions. [Tagging the Mexican botanists and naturalists from earlier in this thread for their input: @najera_tutor, @arturocastro, @socogonzalez, @pioleon, @aztekium_tutor ]
Hello, your split of Genus Manfreda from Genus Mangave have created a problem. There are hybrids between the two which were previously considered hybrids within Genus Agave but now need a new Hybrid Genus (xMangave).
I have created a request to add this taxon. Since you seem familiar with the group, can you please look into it and maybe resolve it: https://www.inaturalist.org/flags/553039
hello to all
@jf920 this Hybrid Genus is natural or greenhouse made?
i agree with keeping separated Manfreda and so from Agave; sensu stricto Agave spp. just bloom once.
Agave cantala -> Agave vivipara = Agave cantala described in 1814 has priority vs Agave vivipara described in 1861
Agave capensis -> Agave aurea capensis = seems right
Agave colimana -> Agave ortgiesiana = Agave ortgesiana described in 1880 has priority vs Agave colimana described in 1968
Agave cordillerensis -> Agave americana americana = different species, compare inflorescence
Agave desmettiana -> Agave demeesteriana = seems right but might need better review
Agave rigida -> Agave angustifolia angustifolia = or A. vivipara vivipara?
Agave lurida -> Agave vera-cruz = Agave vera-cruz described in 1768 has priority vs Agave lurida described in 1789
Agave promontorii -> Agave aurea promontorii = seems right
Agave neglecta -> Agave weberi = diferent species, A. weberi from central mexico (SLP above 1500 masl) and the other one A. negecta from sw usa (Florida just at sea level)
Agave deserti pringlei -> Agave pringlei
Agave deserti deserti -> Agave deserti
Agave angustifolia marginata -> Agave angustifolia angustifolia
Agave attenuata pedunculifera -> Agave attenuata
Agave mapisaga lisa -> Agave mapisaga
Agave mitis albicans -> Agave mitis
Agave mitis mitis -> Agave mitis
Agave vivipara rubescens -> Agave angustifolia rubescens
Agave garciamartinezii = described on Lacandonia 15(1): 13-22, ills., in 2021
Agave gypsicola = described on Acta Botanica Mexicana 126: e1461, pages 6-9, ills., in 2019
Agave beauleriana (1868) has priority over Agave franzosinii (1889) and A. franzosinii seems to be a specie just known from botanical gardens
Agave univittata a deviation from POWO's A. lophantha, both species icluded in iNat
Agave willdingii a valid specie described at Hortus Botanicus Panormitanus 2: 36, t. 32, in 1878
Agave lyobaa = described on Acta Botanica Mexicana 126: e1461, pages 2-6, ills., in 2019
Agave megalodonta = described on Acta Botanica Mexicana 126: e1461, pages 11-15, ills., in 2019
Agave nussaviorum = described at Acta Botanica Mexicana 91: 78, in 2010
Agave pygmaea = deviation from A. seemanniana, no idea
Agave quiotepecensis = described on Acta Botanica Mexicana 126: e1461, pages 9-11, ills., in 2019
Agave × = i made this so I can integrate here all the natural hybrids for further study, did the same with Opuntia
@najera_tutor Most of them are horticultural hybrids, but i know of one, which is supposed to be a natural one. Possibly there are more that i dont know of. ×Mangave ‘Macho Mocha’ was grown from seeds collected in the wild on a Manfreda variegata. It was most likely pollinated by Agave ceslsii growing nearby.
Maybe you can add your opinion on the thread i linked.
we just need to accept first Manfreda genus
OK to follow POWO and sink into agave or are we deviating? @bouteloua @najera_tutor @alexiz