Flag for Taxon: scarlet pimpernel (Lysimachia arvensis)
| Flagger | Content Author | Content | Reason | Flag Created | Resolved by | Resolution |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| jimarcor | w_martin | scarlet pimpernel (Lysimachia arvensis) |
Nuevo estudio filogenético (https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.04.16.440231) del grupo sitúa a L. arvensis como un linaje independiente, ahora llamado L. loeflingii, diferente a L. arvensis, que ahora solo incluye las de flores rojas |
Apr. 21, 2021 14:15:14 +0000 | kitty12 |
See comments |
Comments
What about plants that have both red and blue flowers?
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/67597923
@bodofzt That looks like it's probably just both varieties growing together in the same spot, I don't see any sign that they're actually on the same branches
Since A.loeflingii hasn't been already acepted or included in POWO or iNat, both blue and red varieties must be included in L.arvensis yet. Please don't remove the blue flowers' photographs from the L.arvensis page, as it is leading to confusion and many observers are mistakenly identifying them as L.foemina or other.
Are L. foemina and L. arvensis var. caerulea the same thing? They are listed as separate species on POW. See also file:///C:/Users/candj/Downloads/wi.39.39103.pdf
They are separate species, but when L.arvensis has the blue variety photographs removed from its description page, people often mistakenly think that all L.arvensis are red and their observation is a L.foemina, when in fact the blue variety of L.arvensis is usually much more common than this species.
Thanks, I have also worked out some of the differences: "Lysimachia foemina can be distinguished from Lysimachia arvensis on the basis of the hairiness and arrangement of the petals and by the length of the flower stalk. This species has just a few glandular hairs on the margins of the petals, clearly separated from one another (never imbricate). Furthermore the flower stalk is shorter (10 mm (0.39 in)). The colour of the flowers is not a useful diagnostic character.[7]"
I accept that they are separate species and we do not have L. foemina in New Zealand - yet.
See Relationships of Anagallis foemina and A. arvensis (Myrsinaceae): New insights inferred from DNA sequence data. By Ulrika Manns a,*, Arne A. Anderberg 2007
But see also https://academic.oup.com/botlinnean/article/199/2/557/6494517 ??
Also, L.foemina has long, lanceolate leaves and L.arvensis' are usually shorter and wider
L. loeflingii is now well described as such: https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:3292486-4#synonyms
It's the "blue L. arvensis", not L. foemina.
Coudl you add this new taxon please ?
How many of the blue flowered plants are in iNat only as L. arvensis? Will we have to do a taxon split for all the european observations of L. arvensis and bump them up to the section Anagalis?
It looks like 12k observations. https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?nelat=82.16739068759804&nelng=-168.9729426049619&place_id=any&subview=map&swlat=-11.10829994452789&swlng=-31.46479992805255&taxon_id=791928
This is going to be a rather intensive split since so many observations will need to be reidentified.
While we're doing taxon changes on this, we also need to merge all the subspecies on this. None are recognized in POWO. That will have to occur after the split however.
I added the missing species of the study (Lysimachia talaverae & L. collina). One of them was synonymous with Lysimachia talaverae. It makes one less to worry about.
Please do not merge L. arvensis subsp. platyphylla, this taxon was not studied by JIMENEZ-LOPEZ et al. 2022 !
Probably it would need a full specific rank or a subspecific one under L. loeflingii...
@abounabat Do you have some sort of reference for that? POWO sinks it into L. arvensis.
I reply you same question : do POWO has any reference for merging ?
I think no and probably the merging is just by "facility" because the last work of Jimenez-Lopez et al. 2022 didn't talk about it...
But I just asked them and will let you know when reply !
Thank you!
Already replied : it was an old option assumed by Dobignard & Chatelain (2010-2013), thus before my new combination in 2021. Case to be followed...
for reference I'm now cleaning up the Australia observations, also wrote a journal post
https://www.inaturalist.org/posts/80958-splitting-of-lysimachia-arvensis-colour-morphs
Update :
Lysimachia loeflingii is now accepted by POWO and has already been added to iNaturalist.
@jimarcor @kitty12 @bodofzt @graysquirrel @carber @chrise @botanarchiste @kevinfaccenda @nschwab @abounabat @thebeachcomber : can this flag be closed ?
should be fine
I am checking all the observations of Lysimachia arvensis with blue flowers : can someone else check them ? Most of them are still IDed as Lysimachia arvensis :
Link : https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?verifiable=true&ident_taxon_id=1196640&ident_user_id=t_e_dhttps://www.inaturalist.org/observations?verifiable=true&ident_taxon_id=1196640&ident_user_id=t_e_d
I fixed all Australian observations last year. I'm not really confident IDing outside of Australia given the other blue species that exists
I also fixed all non W-Medit ones.
But at least al the L. foemina should be revised, and maybe some L. loeflingii ?
I checked their presented photos at top of screen and they are good :
https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/792216-Lysimachia-foemina
https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/1467819-Lysimachia-loeflingii
I revised all observations from Switzerland.
There are about 1000 obs which need IDs to help push old L. arvensis IDs to maverick:
@galanhsnu @leaf0605 @silversea_starsong @brothernorbert @thebeachcomber @chiuluan @margl @oneanttofew @taiwan_reevesia @chinaberryhuang @jodyhsieh @jeremygilmore
If we all ID a few hundred of these we can help get this taxon cleaned up
Not to say "I was right", but there were many cases in the past where people rejected my call to ID blue ones to variety for a future split...
If there are places where all blue lysimachia are L. loeflingii i can help but I am not confident if that isn't the case where there are other blue lysimachia. I don't want to make anything worse.
If you have this case give me a link to a filter or describe filter
cheers
Yeah there is a real ID issue with loeflingii vs. other "blue" species, although this is only in certain regions.
I have now checked all observations of « Lysimachia arvensis with blue flowers » in Europe and Africa: can someone else double-check them ?
I may have inadvertantly introduced some confusion between Lysimachia loeflingii and Lysimachia foemina.
And some of them are still IDed as Lysimachia arvensis :
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?verifiable=true&ident_taxon_id=1196640&ident_user_id=t_e_d
If the photo is macro enough, you can tell them by the fringe of the petals. But many observations, such as phone photos, cannot tell the distinction.
@abounabat explained something about the shape of the leaves.
yes, leaves are another more indication, but not easy to apprehend.
arvensis / loeflingii / talaverae / platyphylla : ovate, obtuse, ligth green
foemina : oblong-lanceolate, subacute, deep green
monelli / collina : lanceolate-linear (and perennial plants !)
@dpavon : am I right ?
Which has the fringed petals
Got it
See complete key page 572 : https://academic.oup.com/botlinnean/article/199/2/557/6494517
We still have some « Lysimachia arvensis with blue flowers » that are Research Grade here : https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?ident_taxon_id_exclusive=791928,1467819&place_id=any&reviewed=true&subview=table&taxon_id=791928&verifiable=any
One to keep an eye on once it's published.