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abounabat Ophrys virescens

Added by deviation but partially in conflict with O. sphegodes subsp. araneola

Nov. 22, 2021 23:36:05 +0000 borisb

Comments

1/ If we maintain O. virescens as a full species, we should choose if :

1.1. O. araneola/O. litigiosa follows back in synonymy,
1.2. or to be still considered as a subspecies of sphegodes,
1.3. or to be elevated also at species rank ?
2/ If we downgrade O. virescens as a subspecies of sphegodes, it should be named O. sphegodes subsp. riojana, at least provisionally...

@curcu34 @didierbas @tkoffel @chacled @fabien_anthelme @jujurenoult @mireille31 @pdubois : as the main observers of O. virescens, what is your choice ?
@ wolfgangb @bernardoparri @fabienpiednoir @mercantour : as the main identifiers of O. virescens, what is your choice ?

Thanks to all,
Errol.

Posted by abounabat over 2 years ago

I don't know this enough to pronounce.

Posted by fabienpiednoir over 2 years ago
Posted by mercantour over 2 years ago

I guess that if we maintain O. virescens as a full species, O. araneola should be upgraded as specie too. But with this option shouldn’t several subsp be reconsidered to be equally treated ?

Posted by mercantour over 2 years ago

There is another possibility. Do not upgrade O virescens but O. araneola as main species. For this we could follow the Kreutz 2004/2007's scheme :
Ophrys araneola subsp. argentaria (Devillers-Tersch. & Devillers) Kreutz
Ophrys araneola subsp. ausonia (Devillers, Devillers-Tersch. & P.Delforge) Kreutz
Ophrys araneola subsp. illyrica (S.Hertel & K.Hertel) Kreutz
Ophrys araneola subsp. incantata (Devillers & Devillers-Tersch.) Kreutz
Ophrys araneola subsp. quadriloba (Rchb.f.) Kreutz
Ophrys araneola subsp. tommasinii (Vis.) Kreutz
Ophrys araneola subsp. virescens (Gren.) Kreutz
The only problem is nomenclatural, because O. araneola Rchb (1831), based on the herbarium sheet and the living plants on the type locality (Bew, Switzerland), is more and more considered as a minor form of O. aranifera/sphegodes, and not a species with a small labellum, like O litigiosa Camus (1890), traditionnally considered as a posterior synonym.
And if we consider Ophrys virescens Philippe (1859, not O. aranifera var. virescens Gren., 1859 also) as a legitimate name, it should be the priority name. But O. tommasinii Vis. (1851) is another more priority name on O. virescens. And both under these two names, none of these taxa had been combined...
Nevertheless, this Kreutz's araneola scheme could solve the most part of the problem, at least at iNat level.
What do you think about ?

Posted by abounabat over 2 years ago

What a mess !
As you said the Kreutz’s araneola scheme is maybe the wiser solution for the moment despite the nomenclatural problem that you mentioned.
On that case O. sphegodes subsp. araneola would become O. araneola ? That’s correct ?

Posted by mercantour over 2 years ago

unfortunately yes (but the name O. litigiosa is to be preferred for other uses than iNat !)

Posted by abounabat over 2 years ago

@naturalist : any opinion ?

Posted by abounabat over 2 years ago

I am not able to pronounce !
Sorry.

Posted by didierbas over 2 years ago

I am not competent for the taxonomy of orchids ... sorry

Posted by pdubois over 2 years ago

I lack the knowledge about this group, despite I encountered some members.
As a general point of view, splitting (ie. making species from subsp. or vars.) should require crossings and/or genetic assessment. Jordan tried (deeply!) and ... failed.
In cases of reticulated evolution where gene-flows still occurs it's just misleading.
Practically, I think that having a "look-like" species plus subspecies would allow IDs at species level, even by unexperimented botanists; these IDs could be improved to subspecies level by specialists (probably with debates in this case !).
On the other hand, the creation of a species for each "form" would quickly generate a lot of "Ohprys sp." IDs due to the impossibilty to separate these forms for an untrained generalist.
At least a "sensu-lato" group should encompass all these species.
In My Humble Opinion,
Sylvain

Posted by curcu34 over 2 years ago

Yes I agree and understand your opinion. It is currently the case for most of the deviation followed here (O. bornmuelleri, O. exaltata, O oestrifera, etc.) : they are possible to identify at species level based on photo, and then geography and phenology and small variations could help to ID at subspecies level.
So if we deviate for O. araneola s.l. (small labellum, < sepals), it would be ok also ?

Posted by abounabat over 2 years ago

Draft swap proposed here : https://www.inaturalist.org/taxon_changes/102477
Is it ok for everybody ?

Posted by abounabat over 2 years ago

Ok for me

Posted by mercantour over 2 years ago

No objection :-)

Posted by pdubois over 2 years ago

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