Flagger Content Author Content Reason Flag Created Resolved by Resolution
loarie Genus Lagenorhynchus

split off Sagmatias?

Dec. 3, 2021 00:17:28 +0000 loarie

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MDD splits off these into Sagmatias
{in: ["Lagenorhynchus australis"], out: ["Sagmatias australis"]},
{in: ["Lagenorhynchus cruciger"], out: ["Sagmatias cruciger"]},
{in: ["Lagenorhynchus obliquidens"], out: ["Sagmatias obliquidens"]},
{in: ["Lagenorhynchus obscurus"], out: ["Sagmatias obscurus"]},
should we split or deviate?
@bobby23 @jwidness

Posted by loarie over 2 years ago

Hi @jakob87 - thanks for your direct message. here's the flag about the Lagenorhynchus split @bobby23 and @jwidness gave the greenlight for this offline.
Our reference for Mammals is Mammal Diversity Database which considers Lagenorhynchus split.

Its possible to deviate from MDD and revert to Lagenorhynchus sensu lato but I'd prefer not to do this as its alot of work to undo the split and set up the deviation. But I defer to you and other curators.

In general if there's mammal taxonomy situations where you think we should be deviating from MDD please flag the taxa or chime in on open flags so we can create deviations before changes are made

Posted by loarie about 2 years ago

Ha, it was my friend Rick LeDuc who proposed placing this genus into Sagmatias based on early mtDNA work (LeDuc et al. 1999). I think for the time being, Lagenorhynchus is still the accepted nomenclature. The debate within the Society of Marine Mammalogy is summarized below. Source: https://marinemammalscience.org/science-and-publications/list-marine-mammal-species-subspecies/

"The genus Lagenorhynchus is widely considered a polyphyletic taxon containing morphologically convergent species (Cipriano 1997, LeDuc et al. 1999, McGowen 2011, Banguera-Hinestroza et al. 2014, Vollmer et al. 2019). Vollmer et al. (2019) provided a detailed review of the relationships among members of the genus Lagenorhynchus and their relationship to Cephalorhynchus and Lissodelphis. Results continue to support the polyphyletic nature of the genus Lagenorhynchus and multiple morphological and genetic analyses indicate that L. albirostris and L. acutus are evolutionarily distinct from the other members of all three genera. Vollmer et al. (2019) recommended revision of the genus sensu Leduc et al. (1999), placing L. obscurus, L. obliquidens, L. australis and L. cruciger into the genus Sagmatias, L. acutus into the genus Leucopleurus and leaving L. albirostris in a monotypic genus Lagenorhynchus. While a majority of committee members supported the changes proposed by Vollmer et al. (2019), a 2/3 majority of voting members was not reached. Primary objection to the changes focused on remaining uncertainties in some relationships and the potential confusion that may be created if the proposed changes require further revision in the near future. At issue are 1) the conflicting support among data sets for a sister-taxa relationship between L. albirostris and L. acutus (which would obviate the need for Leucopleurus), and 2) evidence that australis and cruciger should be included in Cephalorhynchus (which would necessitate a new genus for obliquidens and obscurus, as australis is the type species for the genus Sagmatias). Therefore, the taxonomy list retains all species in Lagenorhynchus, recognizing that the current taxonomy does not reflect the evolutionary distinctiveness of L. albirostris and L. acutus. Next steps in unraveling the taxonomy of these dolphins will need to involve robust datasets that include all Lagenorhynchus and Cephalorhynchus species. Harlin-Cognato (2010) recognized L. obscurus posidonia (Peru/Chile).

It has been noted repeatedly, most recently by Perrin et al. (2013), that the delphinine genera Stenella and Tursiops are paraphyletic and that at present there is no molecular or morphological basis for satisfactory resolution of phylogenetic relationships in the subfamily. A possible solution would be to return all the species in Tursiops, Sousa, and Stenella to Delphinus, the genus in which they were first described, and place Lagenodelphis hosei there as well. However, considering that this would obscure the clear close relationship of the present Sousa and Tursiops species, the status quo is maintained here provisionally, pending the outcome of more definitive morphological and molecular studies. Eventually a more natural classification will emerge."

Posted by jim_carretta about 2 years ago

Hi @loarie, @bobby23 and @jwidness
Thanks for responding to my message,
I think the statement by the SMM Tax. Comm. summarizes the difficulty of the split. The evidence that the four species grouped as Sagmatias are closely related and only distantly related to the two other Lags is very solid and not disputed. It is the relationship between these four species and the four Cephalorhynchus species (Hector's, Heaviside's, Commerson's, and Chile dolphin) that is the root of the problem. There is consensus in the molecular genetic data that L. obscurus and L. obliquidens are sister species, as are L. australis and L. cruciger. What is not consistent is whether the two pairs are themselves sister groups. If they are, as some molecular data suggests, Sagmatias is a monophyletic genus and all is well. If, however, as some other molecular data and data on the echolocation signals indicate, the L.australis/L.cruciger group is closer related to the four Cephalorhyncus species than the L.obscurus/L.obliquidens group, then Sagmatias is paraphyletic.
It is more problematic than this, because it is not possible to move L.australis/L.cruciger out of Sagmatias again, if it turns out that they rightly belong in Cephalorhynchus, because L. australis is the type species for Sagmatias. This means that Sagmatias cannot remain with L.obscurus/L.obliquidens, if australis is moved. Conclusion is that Lags are a mess, but that there is a risk of making even more mess by resurrecting Sagmatias. In my opinion, much better to live with the current situation for a few years until decisive molecular/anatomical/acoustical data is provided and a robust solution found.
For you info, I am not a taxonomist. My contribution to this question is that I have provided the acoustic data relevant for this question.

Posted by jakob87 about 2 years ago

So you want to go back to Lagenorhynchus sensu lato? e.g.
Lagenorhynchus, Sagmatias, Leucopleurus -> Lagenorhynchus

Posted by loarie about 2 years ago

please reopen/comment if still an issue

Posted by loarie over 1 year ago

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