Flag for Taxon: Subgenus Nigritella
| Flagger | Content Author | Content | Reason | Flag Created | Resolved by | Resolution |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ljazz | naturalist | Subgenus Nigritella |
it would be better split from Gymnadenia |
Dec. 13, 2021 21:49:00 +0000 | Not Resolved |
Comments
@abounabat any thoughts ?
For me ok for the split. I always thought that the merging was not satisfying.
@ljazz : can you send a feedback to POWO with the relevant literature ?
See : https://powo.science.kew.org/contact
Done
@ljazz : let us know when you have an answer.
@ljazz : did you get an answer from POWO ?
oh, yes,
Sorry,
I messaged POWO, and then forgot to relay the answer.
Unfortunately, Raphael does not agree, and thinks its besetter to keep them together.
So we remain like this, probably.
@ljazz : do we need to add Gymnadenia subg. Gymnadenia with all other species ?
The article supports at least that (I think the authors meant to reinstate the genus Nigritella, one of the authors was my supervisor and we talked about this, and I think I remember him saying so, but Raphael disagrees with how the results of the study should be interpreted, which I also think is a valid opinion, and I do not want to put too much pressure on my memories of a conversation i had years ago).
Unfortunately they did not state any explicit nomenclature changes in the paper so, subgenus Gymnadenia is not explictily stated, typified and described, and I cannot find a referenece for that.
If subg. Gymnadenia is added, then subg. Gymnigritella needs to be added too for the hybrids between the two subgenera.
I think that while the situation on iNat is unsatisfactory, it is best to leave it like this right now, until (and if) POWO decides to implement the changes/new research come to light. Given these are European orchids, the latter is inevitable.
@ljazz : Gymnadenia subgen. Nigritella was described in 1999, 20 years before the 2019 article that you cite.
See : https://ipni.org/n/1013938-1
Yes yes,
but Gymnadenia subgen. Gymnadenia is without citation, no? At least I could not find anything on IPNI and POWO
if yes, then it probably should be added since the article I cited supports a sister relationship between two clades.
There is this though:
https://ipni.org/n/77159483-1
The 1999 article is avaivable here : http://naturalistesbelges.be/index.php/revue/volumesprecedents/volume80/
Fascicule 3
It is in French.If you need help to translate something, I can help.
Autonyms are always without citation.
See : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonym_(botany)
Thank you for clarifying and taking your time to teach me.
Then I think it would be beneficial to create subg. Gymnadenia.
I have added Gymnadenia subgen. Gymnadenia here : https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/1535231-Gymnadenia
And I have added a deviation here for both subgenera : https://www.inaturalist.org/taxon_framework_relationships/750059
Can you tell me which species belong which subgenus?
Our messages have crossed paths. You are welcome !
subg. NIgritella already exists, with 16 species.
Tell me if you need list without authors?
the following are species (and hybrids) from POWO, belonging to NIgritella:
Gymnadenia archiducis-joannis (Teppner & E.Klein) Teppner & E.Klein
Gymnadenia austriaca (Teppner & E.Klein) P.Delforge
Gymnadenia bicolor (W.Foelsche) W.Foelsche & O.Gerbaud
Gymnadenia buschmanniae (Teppner & Ster) Teppner & E.Klein
Gymnadenia carpatica (Zapał.) Teppner & E.Klein
Gymnadenia corneliana (Beauverd) Teppner & E.Klein
Gymnadenia × delphineae (M.Gerbaud & O.Gerbaud) M.Gerbaud & O.Gerbaud
Gymnadenia dolomitensis Teppner & E.Klein
Gymnadenia × eggeriana O.Gerbaud
Gymnadenia × fohringeri (Griebl) J.M.H.Shaw
Gymnadenia gabasiana (Teppner & E.Klein) Teppner & E.Klein
Gymnadenia × jabornikana O.Gerbaud & W.Foelsche
Gymnadenia lithopolitanica (Ravnik) Teppner & E.Klein
Gymnadenia miniata (Crantz) Hayek
Gymnadenia minor (W.Foelsche & Zernig) W.Foelsche, Zernig & O.Gerbaud
Gymnadenia nigra (L.) Rchb.f.
Gymnadenia × petzenensis (F.Fohringer & Redl) Oddone
Gymnadenia rhellicani (Teppner & E.Klein) Teppner & E.Klein
Gymnadenia × ritzbergeri (Lachmair) Eccarius
Gymnadenia stiriaca (Rech.) Teppner & E.Klein
Gymnadenia × teppneri (W.Foelsche) Oddone
Gymnadenia × wettsteiniana O.Abel
Gymnadenia widderi (Teppner & E.Klein) Teppner & E.Klein
these are Gymnadenia:
Gymnadenia bicornis Tang & K.Y.Lang G
Gymnadenia borealis (Druce) R.M.Bateman, Pridgeon & M.W.Chase G
Gymnadenia conopsea (L.) R.Br. G
Gymnadenia crassinervis Finet
Gymnadenia densiflora (Wahlenb.) A.Dietr.
Gymnadenia emeiensis K.Y.Lang
Gymnadenia × intermedia Peterm.
Gymnadenia frivaldii Hampe ex Griseb.
Gymnadenia odoratissima (L.) Rich.
Gymnadenia orchidis Lindl.
Gymnadenia taquetii Schltr.
And these are accepted hybrids between the subgenera:
Gymnadenia × abelii Hayek GN
Gymnadenia × borisii Stoj., Stef. & T.Georgiev GN
Gymnadenia × geigelsteiniana (B.Baumann & H.Baumann) J.M.H.Shaw
Gymnadenia × hedrenii (W.Foelsche) J.M.H.Shaw
Gymnadenia × godferyana (G.Keller) W.Foelsche
Gymnadenia × heufleri (A.Kern.) Wettst.
Gymnadenia × hubertii (Griebl) J.M.H.Shaw
Gymnadenia × kaeseri (Braun-Blanq.) Oddone
Gymnadenia × pyrenaeensis W.Foelsche
Gymnadenia × runei (Teppner & E.Klein) Ericsson
Gymnadenia × schwerei (G.Keller) J.M.H.Shaw
Gymnadenia × suaveolens (Vill.) Rchb.f.
Gymnadenia × trummeriana (W.Foelsche) J.M.H.Shaw
Gymnadenia × truongiae (Demares) W.Foelsche
Gymnadenia × turnowskyi (W.Foelsche) W.Foelsche
Gymnadenia × wucherpfennigiana (W.Foelsche) Eccarius
The list is fine. Thank you very much. It saves me a lot of time.
I have grafted the species in Gymnadenia subgen. Gymnadenia.
Note : I have renamed Gymnadenia runei -> Gymnadenia × runei : https://www.inaturalist.org/taxon_changes/139747
3 are listed in iNaturalist, but are synonyms according to POWO :
Gymnadenia × chanousiana : this name is a synonym of Gymnadenia × suaveolens according to POWO
Gymnadenia hygrophila : this name is a synonym of Gymnadenia miniata according to POWO
Gymnadenia ravnikii : this name is a synonym of Gymnadenia rhellicani according to POWO
I see.
the first one seems to be OK to be synonymized, the hybrid formulae are the same.
I do not know what to do about the other two. There seems to be a bit of a dispute of how many species there are, and one of the guys involved is really splitting hairs and decribing new species like he is paid to do it, creating confusion, so it is hard to know what to think. hygrophila has been subsumed and reinstated already two times.
For ravnikii, this taxon has been noticed and recorded in Slovenia for many years, and seems to be morphologically distinct and considered "good", if it is treated as a narrow endemic.
We can follow POWO, but it can happen we will be splitting them up again in a couple of months.
POWO is following a book i cannot access in synonymising the latter two.
If this can wait until monday, I will ask in our library if they have it.
I have renamed Gymnadenia × chanousiana -> Gymnadenia × suaveolens : https://www.inaturalist.org/taxon_changes/139749
The other two can wait until monday, and even more.
@ljazz : anything new ?
no, sorry, still searching for the book
Gymnadenia subg. Nigritella is morphologically very distinct and there is also genome-wide genetic evidence supporting the view that Gymnadenia and Nigritella should be regarded as sister groups:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1055790319300685
The merging of Gymnadenia and Nigritella was done due to genetic studies based on one or a few genes, indicating that Nigritella is embeded in the former. However this study had much more data from many loci over all of the genome, and separates genera clearly and firmly into two monophyletic sister groups, a condition also strongly supported by morphological characters.