Flag for Taxon: Catalina Cherry (Subspecies Prunus ilicifolia lyonii)
| Flagger | Content Author | Content | Reason | Flag Created | Resolved by | Resolution |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| rynxs | Catalina Cherry (Subspecies Prunus ilicifolia lyonii) |
taxonomy needs review |
Mar. 22, 2022 03:40:05 +0000 | Not Resolved |
Comments
To summarize:
P. ilicifolia ssp. lyonii -> P. ilicifolia var. ilicifolia
P. ilicifolia ssp. ilicifolia -> P. ilicifolia var. ilicifolia? (not directly stated on POWO)
Potential for P. ilicifolia ssp. lyonii to have been mistaken for P. lyonii
Addition of P. ilicifolia var. occidentalis
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:30123157-2
It looks to me like Prunus lyonii is the same thing as Prunus ilicifolia lyonii. The latter should definitely not be merged into var ilicifolia. It looks to me they should be converted to lyonii.
Lyonii is the island version of this species that occurs on Catalina island but sometimes shows up on the mainland too. Often called catalina cherry. it is very different from the mainland one. While i am no splitter, this split to species does make sense to me. They are very different and other than outright errors no one is going to label var ilicifolia as lyonii. Lyonii has way bigger leaves and is a taller plant - large shrub or small tree. var ilicifolia is a smaller shrub and rarely takes tree form.
So, this version of events instead?
P. ilicifolia ssp. lyonii -> P. lyonii
P. ilicifolia ssp. ilicifolia -> P. ilicifolia var. ilicifolia
Add P. ilicifolia var. occidentalis
The confusing aspects of this version of events is that P. ilicifolia var. occidentalis is still unaccounted for, and there are still quite a few mainland observations. It also goes against POWO's synonymies, although I don't know enough about it either way.
@jrebman do you have some insight?
i believe that is correct but would want to hear from someone else as i have been pretty detached from California botany for over 10 years. I dont even know occidentalis but it looks like it is the same as lyonii maybe
According to the FNA treatment, it appears that they have synonymized P. lyonii and P. i. ssp. lyonii under the name P. i. var. occidentalis. I have to admit that this is the first that I had even seen this name "occidentalis." Hopefully, someone has checked the nomenclature to make this sure the synonyms are being used correctly. This name change has not yet been done in the Jepson eflora. As for the taxa, I agree that there are 2 separate taxa in our region as described below and in the FNA treatment. The island taxon is being planted as a CA native plant in many landscapes here in SoCal and it does naturalize readily. PLus, there is no question that it is hybridizing with our native taxon (var. ilicifolia) and forming hybrid swarms with a lot of intermediate morphology in our coastal, urban areas. I don't have an opinion on the nomenclature, but there are definitely 2 different taxa in our region.
ugh why get rid of lyonii? occidentalis to me implies a broader range.
Hi! I just noticed this taxon duplication.
POWO made a mistake with their synonymy (I would always recommend applying a little scrutiny to POWO, they are very much a work in progress and do make mistakes, but they are usually quick to fix them) and I've sent them an email and they said they will make the change in the next update . Prunus ilicifolia var. occidentalis is totally synonymous with Prunus ilicifolia ssp./var. lyonii. FNA reflects this:
Variety occidentalis is native on the Channel Islands and occasionally escapes from cultivation on the mainland. Some botanists consider it a subspecies or variety of Prunus ilicifolia because the two taxa when grown together hybridize to form viable fertile offspring (P. H. Raven 1963), and since some specimens have more or less toothed leaves, intermediate between the extremes of the two taxa. Others prefer distinct species based on geographic isolation and differences in plant size and habit, leaf margin, petiole length, and fruit color.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=250100709
I don't love the idea of using a name that most people within the range haven't heard, but treating P. lyonii as a full species does seem to be out of favor. Whether it should have the rank of subspecies or variety is up for debate, but if treated at the rank of variety P. i. var. occidentalis has priority.
For now at least I will draft a swap to merge P. lyonii into P. ilicifolia ssp. lyonii, because there should not be duplicate taxa and then the issue of the name of this taxon can be sorted out.
Taxonomy is pretty wild. These are two very discrete entities that get lumped, whereas absurdly similar entities get split into species. Taxonomy...
Swap drafted here: https://www.inaturalist.org/taxon_changes/112267
I also just noticed that POWO accepts both Prunus lyonii and Prunus ilicifolia var. occidentalis 🤦♂️. I just sent another email, but I'm not sure how they'll choose to resolve that, possible that they'll choose to accept P. lyonii, they tend to be very happy splitters. There are several cases where they recognize species that no one else does.
yeah that is why i am surprised they didn't split, given they will split a fern with hairs 0.1 millimeter longer that are only visible for 5 minutes a year.
I suspect the situation is more complex than POWO's synonyms would make one expect. POWO has synonymized P. ilicifolia ssp. lyonii with P. ilicifolia var. ilicifolia. This means that (if in keeping with POWO) the current subspecies need to be changed to varieties and merged. Additionally, P. ilicifolia var. occidentalis needs to be added. Further complicating the situation, P. lyonii is a valid species on POWO, which means P. ilicifolia ssp. lyonii observations could actually be intended for P. lyonii. I am not familiar with the species, but at the very least, this requires review.