Flagger | Content Author | Content | Reason | Flag Created | Resolved by | Resolution |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
kai_schablewski | mock vervains (Genus Glandularia) |
Glandularia is a synonym of Verbena according to POWO |
Sep. 10, 2019 11:02:17 +0000 | Not Resolved |
Here's a deviation while we discuss
https://www.inaturalist.org/taxon_framework_relationships/206318
do we want to maintain this or follow POWO in lumping Glandularia into Verbena
Where is this discussion?
Is there any resolution.
see e.g.: https://www.inaturalist.org/flags/521827
Particularly, in the case of Glandularia corymbosa. https://www.inaturalist.org/flags/521827
I guess Glandularia should be lumped into Verbena. Accepted species names should appear in INat
.
The Genus Glandularia has been separated from Verbena in 1995. Has there been a revision of Glandularia where the species have been moved back to Verbena? I did not find it. Christenhusz et al. moved six species of Glandularia back to Verbena in 2018, but what is with the other ~80 species? As so often it is not possible to see why POWO did these changes. I would not make such big changes without even knowing why these changes have been done.
And what is with the genus Junellia? The three genera differ in the chromosome count: Verbena x = 7, Glandularia x = 5, Junellia x = 10.
Also it would be good to know if Glandularia then becomes a subgenus or section of Verbena. If so it is better to move them to the accepted section/subgenus instead of mixing them with all other species.
Unfortunately, logic and sense are subservient to monophyly. So it just takes one study to show that Junellia and Glandularia are nested within Verbena and viola: you only have one genus.
Email POWO and ask. They are really helpful and will provide the evidence to back their decisions, or update them. (ignore the automatic Covid warnings about lockdown, pandemics and skeleton staff: they do respond)
Copying @richard_olmstead comment from https://www.inaturalist.org/flags/559941:
"@kitty12, I’m baffled that anyone considers Glandularia to be included within Verbena today. My lab has done definitive work on the phylogeny of tribe Verbenaceae, in collaboration with the taxonomic authorities on the group who have monographed Glandularia and Verbena in a series of publications over the past 15 years. We also have revised generic boundaries within the tribe, splitting Junellia in two creating the new genus Mulguraea and sinking Urbannia into Junellia. POWO, FNA, and the Flora of Argentina all have adopted these revisions. All of this predates the discussion in your link by many years."
@tonyrebelo , I will send POWO a note and let you know what or if I hear back. For your information, our research found Glandularia and Verbena both to be monophyletic, but nested within a paraphyletic Junellia. A small group of Glandularia species was found to be derived from within Junellia in a different part of the phylogeny. The monotypic genus Urbannia also was nested within Junellia. We segregated one clade of Junellia into the new genus Mulguraea, transferred the species in the small clade of Glandularia into Junellia, and sunk Urbania into Junellia. POWO has adopted all of these changes, but for some unknown reason continues to include Glandularia in Verbena.
POWO does this sort of thing. You will probably discover something like the type of Glandularia is a Verbana, and therefore you cannot use it for the new genus, but must use another name. The problem is that POWO does not communicate its internal reasoning, but makes its changes anyway, and one finds out by accident that something is wrong, and only then does one find the reason.
Good luck. Let us hope that if it is not a POWO error, that it is not too onerous, one way or the other.
If it were not for iNaturalist, I know of at least three errors from southern Africa that our taxonomists did not know about, and were discovered via the discrepancy between the literature and POWO in the iNat dictionary.
@tonyrebelo, et al. I contacted Rafael Govaerts, the lead administrator for POWO about this issue. His first response was to defend keeping Glandularia as a synonym of Verbena as a conservative position until further data are available. When I explained that virtually all specialists on Verbenaceae and authors of recently published floras in areas where the family is abundant accept both as distinct genera, he responded that in Europe there are multi-million dollar horticultural businesses that would be hurt or confused by name changes. When I explained that, in my long experience with a number of taxonomic changes to economically important plants, that when science leads, users are happy to follow. I also sent a series of publications showing the strength of the data for maintaining separate genera, he replied that he would take my arguments to the Royal Horticultural Society that meets at the end of May. I hope they come around, but the RHS is not and should not be the arbiter of scientific conclusions. This exchange only confirms for me that the administrators at Kew really do not represent the consensus of scientists working in plant systematics.
& they are Eurocentric. Being third world, we are way down the pecking order Europe - America - Australia (stole Acacia - will they ever be forgiven?: but same argument - hurt and confused by all the name changes), and only then us, so we know all about it.
But a little "inertia" is always a good thing. We have burnt our fingers in the Cape by jumping on the DNA bandwagon, only to discover that more DNA data reverted to the good old-fashioned classification. Yes, it means a very solid case is required, but is that not better?
Dont underestimate the value of the RHS. They will probably concur, and rubberstamp the change, preventing any one official being tarred with a difficult brush. If they dont: well then you know whom to convince!
I asked Rafaël Govaerts at Kew what the status was and he said this:
"As you know they are sister so it is possible to recognise them as separate genera. However as in the papers that support that: http://www.phytoneuron.net/PhytoN-Verbclassification.pdf is mentioned: “The close relationship between Verbena and Glandularia is emphasized by the discovery (Yuan & Olmstead 2008a) that two independent intergeneric chloroplast transfers have occurred, both from Verbena to Glandularia. “One is from a diploid North American Verbena species [V. hastata or V. orcuttiana, as sampled] to a polyploid North American Glandularia species [G. bipinnatifida (Nutt.) Nutt., as sampled]. The other is more ancient, from the South American Verbena group [sect. Verbenaca] to the common ancestor of a major Glandularia lineage [including G. canadensis (L.) Nutt.], which has radiated subsequently in both South and North America”, which indicates their intermingled history and therefore we see no need to split Verbena as it better reflects their evolutionary history."
So they want to follow a plastid phylogeny instead of an organismal genomic phylogeny. I give up. Following that logic we could lump a good chunk of flowering plants into a single genus. (I wonder what the name would be...?) Something tells me horticultural interests still have a thumb on the scales here, and I still support our deviation.
I find dealing with the Kew mafia tiresome. Mr. Govaerts has never done any molecular phylogenetic research, nor published any interpretations of molecular phylogenies to address systematic relationships. I think he has a rather simplistic understanding of molecular evolution as it pertains to interpreting molecular data. So, I find it laughable in a very literal sense when he sites a single publication from my research lab out of the many we have published on this group to reach a diametrically opposed conclusion to our published work. The fact that no one who works on Verbenaceae adopts their treatment of Glandularia and Verbena would chasten them, but it seems to only serve to stiffen their resistance.
looping in this question about the deviation here https://www.inaturalist.org/flags/576262
http://www.plantsoftheworldonline.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:330555-2