Flag for Taxon: Kermes oak (Quercus coccifera)
| Flagger | Content Author | Content | Reason | Flag Created | Resolved by | Resolution |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| j_orfao | Kermes oak (Quercus coccifera) |
A Quercus coccifera complex? |
Dec. 7, 2023 10:19:50 +0000 | j_orfao |
Included complex |
Comments
I am no expert so I will leave that decision to others but make sure that such a complex is based in natural relations and genetics. In any case, it is true that these species will not be easy to identify and tell apart here in iNat.
Here's a link to the article:
https://revistas.ucm.es/index.php/MBOT/article/view/79286
I think a Quercus coccifera complex would be very helpful since our identifications on iNat are based on photos. Because of this specific complex we can get a step closer to species level...
The Iberian and North African plants are out of my area of expertise but speaking of Quercus calliprinos there is a lot of taxonomic ambiguity.
There is no phylogenetic paper on the two forms, species or subspecies of Quercus coccifera s.l. that occur in Greece.
When limited due to human actions, goats or abiotic location factors (e.g. salty sea winds on Aegean Islands) some Q. calliprinos stay in a bush from whereas in remote locations or Cretan monasteries they reach heights like Q. alba or Q. ithaburensis - like @j_orfao mentioned...
Therefore a Q. coccifera complex would be very useful as far as the Greek Quercus coccifera s.l. observations are concerned.
I agree that these taxa are particularly tricky, and that is why they're being sorted out in the present. I deem the article on portuguese oaks to be state of the art. My view is basically the same as @carber 's.
I concur with what was said before.
But I also think that these taxa should be organized here on inaturalist. I just realized that Quercus pseudococcifera appears both as a valid species and as a synonym of Quercus coccifera.
As a side note, someone should also synonymize Quercus broteroana to Quercus orocantabrica.
According to the authors: "The western Mediterranean Kermes oak complex (Quercus coccifera s.l.) encompasses three taxa", refering to Q. coccifera, Q, pseudococcifera and Q. airensis, the latter which is "[...] so far, misunderstood with broad hybrids between Q. coccifera and Q. rotundifolia."]. The assumption of a complex on the article is, from what I understand, a putative relation based on morphology, not genetics. The authors go on to say: "Nevertheless, an in-depth molecular work, preferably with next-generation sequencing tools, inside the western Mediterranean Section Ilex is a demanding task to solve at the population and species level, all these inferences brought by the nomenclatural and morphological analysis.". For now I think it's ok to follow the article and assume a complex, just like it's ok to assume the validity of the species even without genetic evidence. If future publications using "in-depth molecular work" reveal otherwise, that can always be changed.
@josecosta1 I've synonymized those into their respective taxon.
Yes we should !
Ok, there doesn't seem to be any disagreement. I'll add it to INat then. Thanks for the responses.
Following POWO's acceptance of Q. pseudococcifera and Q. airensis, both related to Q. coccifera, I feel like it would be useful to create a complex surrounding all the "kermes oaks". After all, the only way to get a correct ID to species is to look closely at the leaves and cup (especially if we're talking about discerning Q. pseudococcifera from Q. airensis or an underdeveloped arboreal kermes oak from an hypothetically large Q. coccifera), so I assume a lot of "kermes oak" observations here on INat won't get to species level.
Vila-Viçosa et. al. do mention a "Kermes oak complex" in their article.
It's also weird to me that POWO decides to accept the arboreal kermes oaks from Vila-Viçosa et. al. as species while keeping Quercus calliprinos (a tree which can get as big as a white oak) synonymized with Q. coccifera.
What are your thoughts @abounabat @duarte @carber @greek_cicada_project @josecosta1 @joaotiagotavares & others?