Taxonomic Swap 22340 (Committed on 2017-05-20)

unknown
Yes
Added by pjd1 on May 20, 2017 09:32 PM | Committed by pjd1 on May 20, 2017
replaced with

Comments

This hybrid involves a distinct subspecies of Gallirallus australis - i.e. G. australis greyi therefore the combination that I made initially was correct under the zoological code and the usage of the name for this endemic taxon in New Zealand. The switch by Max Krisch to Gallirallus australis australis x greyi is nonsense as Gallirallus greyi is not recognized at species rank - therefore the hybrid involved is not G. australis australis x greyi.

The citation I had originally provided (and provide here again)* and this one http://nzbirdsonline.org.nz/species/weka is I believe sufficient @maxkirsch. I have spoken to the New Zealand expert on this endemic species Gallirallus australis and the subspecies nomenclature within it, Dr Tony Beauchamp who confirms that the usage I had initially provided was correct.

*Beauchamp, A.J.; Butler, D.J. 1999: Weka (Gallirallus australis) recovery plan 1999 - 2009. Threatened Species recovery Plan 29. Department of Conservation, Wellington, New Zealand.

@kueda

Posted by pjd1 almost 7 years ago

Hi @pjd1 -
As far as I can tell, the ICZN makes no recommendations on how to properly form intraspecific hybrid/intergrade names (if it does and I missed it, please let me know). The format I went with is the format eBird uses for intergrades, so it's at least a moderately established format/usage - it's not something I just made up. (It also fits in with iNaturalist's/NatureWatch's scientific name formatting [lack of capital letters {except the first} or punctuation in names] and official rules for hybrid names [i.e. don't repeat the genus after the ×, etc.] better than the maybe more technically correct Gallirallus australis australis × G. a. greyi).

I guess my personal arguments for Gallirallus australis australis × greyi would be: a. no source that I know of ever refers to a species and subspecies alongside each other without also including the genus (i.e. I've never seen things like australis greyi separate from Gallirallus australis greyi or G. australis greyi, since "australis greyi" isn't a taxon), but many sources (e.g. HBW, the Clements checklist, HANZAB, etc.) will refer to subspecies by just their subspecific epithets once the species being referred to is established (e.g. "subspecies greyi" or just greyi, rather than G. a. greyi every time it's mentioned); b. there is (and can be) only one greyi in Gallirallus, and prior knowledge would indicate that that's the North Island subspecies of G. australis; c. the taxon is still nested under G. australis on NatureWatch/iNaturalist, alongside the subspecies G. a. greyi, which should eliminate any potential confusion that could arise from greyi not being explicitly labeled as a subspecies in the hybrid name.

Regardless of what the final decision on iNaturalist's format for intraspecific hybrids/intergrades is, though, the Kapiti Island hybrid weka does still need to be swapped at least one more time, since my initial reason for swapping it was because 544595 (which you've swapped it back into) uses the wrong hybrid symbol - on iNaturalist/NatureWatch, hybrids should be denoted with the symbol ×, not the letter x.

Posted by maxkirsch almost 7 years ago

@maxkirsch - cheers - thanks for dialogue. First off I didn't 'generate' the 'x' for the multiplication sign - the system did so when I designated this a hybrid and I don't know how you fix that. I am fully aware of the distinction (as a botanist / biosystematist) - if you can tell me how to generate the correct symbol by all means let me know.

I agree with you entirely that the preferred hybrid formula should be Gallirallus australis australis × Gallirallus australis greyi or Gallirallus australis australis × G. australis greyi, as it is by the ICN for Algae, Fungi and Plants (which I work under) but I have been led to believe that zoologists insist on Gallirallus australis australis × australis greyi - which is why I generated that hybrid formula (I don't like it for the exact same reasons I have pointed out that plant, algal and fungal hybrid formula are wrongly formulated using iNaturalist rules, and which you also seem to agree with - 'greyi' in isolation is an orphaned epithet).

I have asked @kueda to look into this because you are also correct that the current system will not allow the following hybrid formula - Asplenium bulbiferum × Asplenium flaccidum or Asplenium bulbiferum × A. flaccidum - the best we botanists can do is put it thus Asplenium bulbiferum × a. flaccidum - not satisfactory but way more correct than Asplenium bulbiferum × flaccidum.

As an interim measure though I prefer the seemingly weird Asplenium bulbiferum × a. flaccidum than the nonsensical Asplenium bulbiferum × flaccidum. This has been discussed by Inaturalist boffins but as yet I have not seen a final resolution.

If as you say for zoological matters the same hybrid formula as we use for algae, fungi and plants applies then this is welcome news to me as my zoological colleagues down under insist that for animals Petroica macrocephala chathamense × traversi is correct and that Petroica macrocephala chathamense × Petroica traversi is not.

Ka Kite Ano

Peter

Posted by pjd1 almost 7 years ago

Hi -

I usually just copy and paste the × from another hybrid on iNaturalist when I create a hybrid (it's probably not the quickest or most convenient way to do it, but it works). I generally create new taxa manually (at the page for creating a new taxon); are you importing hybrids from an external source, or is there another way to create hybrids that I'm unaware of?

I think I was wrong about the end of the last sentence of the first paragraph of my earlier comment (when I mentioned Gallirallus australis australis × G. a. greyi as being maybe more technically correct), sorry - as far as I know, zoologists (ornithologists at least) are perfectly fine with Genus species1 × species2, Genus species1 subspecies × species2, and I think generally Genus species subspecies1 × subspecies2 as well (otherwise Clements wouldn't be using the latter); and they're also fine with epithets without their associated genus, at least in certain situations (see e.g. HBW Alive's taxonomy and descriptive notes sections for polytypic species - if you don't have a subscription, one of the free sample accounts this week happens to be White Wagtail). I agree that it would be nice if botanists and other groups of researchers who form hybrid names differently from zoologists had the option to do so on iNaturalist, though (and not being able to capitalize letters in the middle of scientific names is a problem for animals, too, when it comes to intergeneric hybrids, of which there are a fair number among birds).

(Also, I'm sorry for the annoyance I created when I swapped a bunch of New Zealand plants to the Genus species1 × species2 format - I won't do that again.)

Max

Posted by maxkirsch almost 7 years ago

Hi Max,

No problem. I have generated hybrids by creating a new taxon and then designating it a hybrid - the formula result is what iNaturalist creates. So I was not aware of how to cut and paste an '×' but will try it next time I make a hybrid combination.

Cheers

Peter

Posted by pjd1 almost 7 years ago

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